Here's a head scratcher!

[h00blah]

I do think it's a sweet looking snake though! I'm guessing perhaps incubation issue, but I'm not going to rule out the possibility that it was inbreeding-related since I haven't seen much evidence of this kind of thing happening in snakes. I know people SAY that inbreeding is bad, but nobody ever posts pictures displaying issues directly caused by inbreeding.....

I kept editing this paragraph when I wrote my response, but there is some missing punctuation there lol. I specifically said I'm not ruling out the possibility that inbreeding was related. Then there was supposed to be a period to end that statement... But yeah, I haven't seen too much evidence of inbreeding causing issues in snakes.

Reptiles appear to be quite resilient when it comes to inbreeding, but still, there is a general trend: If you inbreed, health goes down, fertility goes down, recessive diseases can pop up, but you can reset the process by outbreeding to unrelated individuals.

They DO appear to be resilient, which is my point. There is tons of evidence that inbreeding is bad for say humans and other mammals, but I haven't really seen enough evidence that it affects reptiles in a terrible way. Some effects that have been rumored are kinks, facial deformities, and fertility issues. I see people inbreed snakes, they hatch healthy looking snakes, and nothing bad happens.. Then I see posts where people SAY that inbreeding is bad for the snakes. Show me proof, or do it yourself and post the results.

Its a shortcut, BUT THERE IS A PRICE, AND DO NOT DENY IT.

end of rant.

I don't deny that inbreeding is bad. I think inbreeding reptiles (ball pythons specificall) will eventually cause negative side-effects, but I have no clue how many generations it will take in order for them to occur. Brian gundy has been line breeding his pieds to produce striped pieds. His goldblush mojave is a result of line breeding to produce that gorgeous blushing on the sides of his mojaves. He's STILL line breeding to this day to improve his mojaves. So far, he hasn't posted any negative impacts on his animals. I'll contact him to specifically ask though. Could be interesting .

[Luciferskeeper]

I have no clue of the morph they are but those are some beautiful babies.

[BCBallPythons]

Commenting to subscribe, can't wait til it's out!

Me too!


Http://www.BCBallPythons.com
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[kc261]

We need more pics! At least give us pics of the parents!

Such an interesting looking little one you have there. Congrats!

[Solarsoldier001]

I'd love to see the parents. I also love to see the baby when it's out. What ever it is. It is amazing


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[Wes]

That looks amazing! can't wait to see it out

[joebad976]

That is really neat....How many days into incubation are they? You say the other babies from this clutch look weird as well...any pics of these? Are you sure there was no incubation stress on this clutch? The pattern is funky but it really looks like it has not fully colored up yet.

I am very interested to see what happens as it emerges and has its first shed. Fingers crossed you hit something special. Good Luck

[Freakie_frog]

If I had to guess I'd say that it's early in the incubation and one of a couple things its either

• the CO2 exchange with the egg is causing some funny pigment in the egg that will settle down after it hatches
• The animal is displaying some tweak due to the Het playing with the gene's
• its deformed and that's whats causing the amazing color
• There's some milk man in that baby (retained sperm)

[satomi325]

In Pets, for pedigree breeding, inbreeding is a shortcut. Sometimes a REQUIRED shortcut, sometimes its just necesary. But the risks still exist. Reptiles appear to be quite resilient when it comes to inbreeding, but still, there is a general trend: If you inbreed, health goes down, fertility goes down, recessive diseases can pop up, but you can reset the process by outbreeding to unrelated individuals.

Entire species overextend, like for example pedigree dog breeding. These darn Ridgebacks for example, the ridgeback is a problematic recessive genetic disease, and it causes suffering and requires treatment. Still, dog breeders produce the breed and it is a popular breed, and sometimes ridgeless ridgebacks are born. They are perfectly fine dogs, with two differences:
1.: They do not and will never suffer from the genetic issue haunting ridgebacks. They make the perfect pet.
2.: They do not have the ridge on the back, its missing.
Now what dog breeders do is to cull them and to further inbreed. Offering them for sale would hurt their reputation. Show quality german shepherds cannot walk properly, its an inbred deteriorated genetic disaster. And these breeders are reckless, and they say things like "If its a boy, its gonna visit its mom later". Just like the original poster did.

Its a shortcut, BUT THERE IS A PRICE, AND DO NOT DENY IT.

end of rant.

I'm wondering if you wikied your entire post. It certainly looks like it.
While, you're not totally incorrect, you're not completely right either.

Bp morphs to Purebred dogs is apples to oranges. People are purposely selecting FOR those bad deleterious traits in dogs. It's not occurring randomly. (And for your information, you cannot breed son to mother in dog breeding. It is father to daughter. My boyfriend's mother breeds AKC champs. This is apparently part of "dog breeding ethics" because in the wild, many daughters would not leave the parent group or territory and breed with a father, compared to the son who does leave the group. )

But anyway.
Some morphs that have heritable issues, such as the spider wobble, don't get selected against and the reason why they're still here. (Same as those disastrous dog breeds)
However, breeders will always cull a deformed/kinked/fail to thrive snake. Many dog breeders do not cull their bad stock, which is why there are so many trainwreck dogs out there (ghetto backyard bred American bullys anyone?).

And BP inbreeding occurs often in the wild. Do you think snakes migrate to other locations to breed? No. They are a non-migratory species. Most reptiles are, which is why they are "so resilient to inbreeding". They're in the same general territory their entire lives and breeding with whatever snake around, aka most likely a close relative. The only differences is that the unfit are selected and taken out of the population. I'm not saying inbreeding is good or bad, it just makes the population have a higher homozygosity. Also why there are locale specific phenotypes. Sure, it can increase negative recessive genes. But it can also increase the positive. It just depends on the individual.
Think geographically and reproductively isolated species or island population dynamics.
Sometimes it negatively impacts populations (cheetahs), while sometimes it has no effect and even sometimes is positive (elephant seals or Humans in Iceland).
By being more homozygous, you are enhancing a population to be more fixated and having the same alleles. Bad or good.

I'm all in favor for outbreeding, don't get me wrong.
But to just say 'inbreeding *is* bad and health and wellness *always* go down' bla bla bla is a poor statement... There can be positive homozygousity in a species.

[Dracowoman2]

Firstly, let me start by saying thanks to everyone for your interest, and for making this thread and interesting read

Now I will try and cover as many answers to the questions as I can, if I miss anything give me a kick

Lineage of the parents: All 4 animals the 3 female hets and the male visual albino were purchased from John Berry in 2008, the females are all 2007's and the male is a 2008, so none had been previously bred. After speaking to John a few days ago as we had had no visual albinos at all fromt he first two 'het' female, he thinks the females were brought in from BHB, and is trying to confirm more info with Brian. I believe the male was produce by John himself. None of the 4 animals in question look to be anything other than what they were purchased as, I have seen other 'hets' bleed through, though I'm seeing nothing extraordinary in any of these, though the only pair in question seriously at the moment are the parents of this single baby. We suspect the first 2 'het' females now could well not be hets, and they were purchased as full hets, not possibles.

The only male that has ever been with this female is the visual albino, she has never been with a co-dom or dom male, or any other recessive for obvious reasons.

The incubation temp in most of the incubator is sitting at 89f, though these have been incubated at the top of the incubator where it is a little cooler. They are currently on day 76, though I had considered the possibility that this baby had coloured up yet, the rest of the clutch are the colour I would expect for hets/normals, and this baby is getting more orange each day. They are still in the eggs this morning and I am leaving them be apart from venting the tub once a day to allow for oxygen exchange and checking humidity, which is my standard practice in the last few weeks of incubation when they need more oxygen.

I will see if I can get a photo of dad, though he looks noting unusual, mum is currently in shed and looking awful, so that will have to wait.

Hope I have covered everything, give me a kick if I missed any vital information.