none locallity specific bci morp list

[OhhWatALoser]

Lesser x Lesser = 50% Lessers, 25% BELs, 25% normal

Ill go really general....

heterozygous x Normal = 50% heterozygous, 50% normals

heterozygous x heterozygous = 50% heterozygous, 25% Homozygous, 25% normal

Homozygous x normal = 100% heterozygous

Homozygous x heterozygous = 50% Homozygous 50% heterozygous

Gene classification has nothing to do with how it works, dominant, co-dom, inc-dom, recessive, they all work exactly the same. A homozygous hypo to a normal will make all heterozygous hypos, now how the snake looks in het and homo form is what makes its classification.

I guess this would be my question, I breed a hypo to a hypo. Do offspring get sold as super hypos and hypos, with a couple unknown or are they all possible super hypos?

[jben]

I guess this would be my question, I breed a hypo to a hypo. Do offspring get sold as super hypos and hypos, with a couple unknown or are they all possible super hypos?

All hypos would be considered possible super hypo until proven.

[OhhWatALoser]

All hypos would be considered possible super hypo until proven.

If that's the case then what we have is a dominant morph

[OhhWatALoser]

So I'm going to bring back up the issue of the hog island hypo again. Everything I read about it, it is a polygenetic trait. With that being cut and dry, we don't know how many genes and all that, actually cause the trait. So we can't really have it in the calc, since it isn't really giving out anything close to accurate answers.

What is still throwing me off is how the heck someone can have a polygenetic trait in a combo name, I mean how the heck do you really define anything with hog island in it? 4 generations down the line after making the bloody sunrise, how can you tell me that snake is different than a super sunglow blood? How can you tell me any variation is caused by the hog island hypo vs the potentially thousands of other genes that have an effect on appearance?'

You have something undefined and use it to define something else, wth boa people?

[Evenstar]

So I'm going to bring back up the issue of the hog island hypo again. Everything I read about it, it is a polygenetic trait. With that being cut and dry, we don't know how many genes and all that, actually cause the trait. So we can't really have it in the calc, since it isn't really giving out anything close to accurate answers.

What is still throwing me off is how the heck someone can have a polygenetic trait in a combo name, I mean how the heck do you really define anything with hog island in it? 4 generations down the line after making the bloody sunrise, how can you tell me that snake is different than a super sunglow blood? How can you tell me any variation is caused by the hog island hypo vs the potentially thousands of other genes that have an effect on appearance?'

You have something undefined and use it to define something else, wth boa people?

I tend to agree with not having that in the calculator - at least not yet until we get some better answers.

I am unsure enough that I don't want to express a personal opinion on how the gene(s) work. But here are a few facts to consider:

1) I had never before heard that Hog Islands were ALL hypos until we got into this subject here - even though I do agree that their coloration is very characteristic of the hypo gene.

2) I do know that there are normal Hogs and "Hypo Hogs". If all Hogs are hypo, how can there then be a "Hypo Hog" that is visually different from the normal Hog??

3) I had heard from several noted Hog breeders that a "sunset" was a hypo hog x hypo colombian. That does not mean that there is a difference between the two hypos - what it means is that there is BOTH hog and colombian blood AND the snake is a SUPER HYPO (because both parents were hypo - but this part cannot be proven until the snake is bred. This animal is sometimes referred to as a "possible sunset" or "het sunset" until it produces - and I HATE that "het" is used here as that is not what the word means - grrrr).

4) There IS a super form of the hypo gene. If both parents are hypo, 50% of the babies will be hypo, 25% will be normals, and 25% will be super hypos. A Super Hypo in turn cannot produce anything but a hypo even if bred to a normal. The hypos and super hypos do NOT look the same - there are very subtle differences. The problem is that, due to the natural variations of the gene's expression, we cannot say with absolute certainty that the "possible super" will prove out until it is bred. This is true in BOTH Hog Islands and in Colombians.

This is just food for thought. I am going to see if I can call a couple of friends/breeders with more experience than me over the next few days and see if we can figure out just what is what.

[jben]

I tend to agree with not having that in the calculator - at least not yet until we get some better answers.

I am unsure enough that I don't want to express a personal opinion on how the gene(s) work. But here are a few facts to consider:

1) I had never before heard that Hog Islands were ALL hypos until we got into this subject here - even though I do agree that their coloration is very characteristic of the hypo gene.

2) I do know that there are normal Hogs and "Hypo Hogs". If all Hogs are hypo, how can there then be a "Hypo Hog" that is visually different from the normal Hog??

3) I had heard from several noted Hog breeders that a "sunset" was a hypo hog x hypo colombian. That does not mean that there is a difference between the two hypos - what it means is that there is BOTH hog and colombian blood AND the snake is a SUPER HYPO (because both parents were hypo - but this part cannot be proven until the snake is bred. This animal is sometimes referred to as a "possible sunset" or "het sunset" until it produces - and I HATE that "het" is used here as that is not what the word means - grrrr).

4) There IS a super form of the hypo gene. If both parents are hypo, 50% of the babies will be hypo, 25% will be normals, and 25% will be super hypos. A Super Hypo in turn cannot produce anything but a hypo even if bred to a normal. The hypos and super hypos do NOT look the same - there are very subtle differences. The problem is that, due to the natural variations of the gene's expression, we cannot say with absolute certainty that the "possible super" will prove out until it is bred. This is true in BOTH Hog Islands and in Colombians.

This is just food for thought. I am going to see if I can call a couple of friends/breeders with more experience than me over the next few days and see if we can figure out just what is what.

1- All the info I've read since learning of hog island boas is that they're naturally occurring hypomelanistic.

2- hypo hogs are a cross between hypo Colombian and hog island boas. You get an exaggerated hypo appearance in the offspring.

3- a sunset(super hypo hog) is a breeding of a hypo hog to a hypo hog

4- there has been plain Jane hypos from hypo to hypo breedings prove supers and really nice hypos from the same breeding not prove to be supers. So one cannot say with certainty that a hypo is a super just because it looks nicer.



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[BFE Pets]

ok this is my last time on the hog island subject. true hog island boas all are naturally occurring hypo. if it is not hypo it is not pure hog island cut and dry. "Het sunset = hypo + Hogg island boa (codominant x locality mutantion designer morp) The het sunset boa is a combination of a hypo boa combined with the naturally occurring hypomelanistic Hogg Island boa. (Hogg Island or Cochinos Cays is a small group of islands off the north coast of Honduras.)" "Sunset boa = hypo + hypo + Hogg Island boa (dominant x Locality mutation designer morph) also known as a super hypo/Hogg Island. The sunset-boa is a combination of the super form of the hypo boa combined with the naturally occurring hypomelanistic Hogg Island boa." those are direct quotes from the book Designer-Morphs Volume one: Ball python & Boa constrictor A guide to mutations and variations by John R Berry. I understand every ones need to have the correct information for the calculator. I want it to be accurate also. However there are things that are accepted in the reptile world as " that's just how it is". In these cases I feel that it is better to have the info there than to leave it out and consistently be called out for not having it there and thusly making it appear that something was over looked or forgotten. No matter how correct or incorrect something is if it has been adapted to be the correct term or widely used in the reptile industry as the coined term it is probably to late for us to change the way it is and we need to conform to the masses as we are probably the minority on the subject. i.e. I completely agree with owal on the whole definition of co-dom/dominant however at this time I feel it is to late to make the change to the entire herp world so I don't bother trying to explain it any differently. or the age old argument of weather or not to breed two different localities together. I personally agree that we should kept the localities and sub species pure but I am not going to tell people that they should or shouldn't do the same(if everyone did we wouldn't be having this debate). and that's my .02 cents on the subject.

[BFE Pets]

So I'm going to bring back up the issue of the hog island hypo again. Everything I read about it, it is a polygenetic trait. With that being cut and dry, we don't know how many genes and all that, actually cause the trait. So we can't really have it in the calc, since it isn't really giving out anything close to accurate answers.

What is still throwing me off is how the heck someone can have a polygenetic trait in a combo name, I mean how the heck do you really define anything with hog island in it? 4 generations down the line after making the bloody sunrise, how can you tell me that snake is different than a super sunglow blood? How can you tell me any variation is caused by the hog island hypo vs the potentially thousands of other genes that have an effect on appearance?'

You have something undefined and use it to define something else, wth boa people?

so any locality trait would be polygenetic? or how about line bred traits. how does that work in say the leopard gecko calculators?

I would believe that only the first generation of that should in fact have the name. after that the genetics are questionable and only what can be proven should be named.

and now we know why boa people don't want or feel the need for a calculator. because with one it proves they are full of crap and are just making things up as they go along. lol Im kidding but sounds logical don't it.

[OhhWatALoser]

so any locality trait would be polygenetic? or how about line bred traits. how does that work in say the leopard gecko calculators?

I would believe that only the first generation of that should in fact have the name. after that the genetics are questionable and only what can be proven should be named.

and now we know why boa people don't want or feel the need for a calculator. because with one it proves they are full of crap and are just making things up as they go along. lol Im kidding but sounds logical don't it.

Locality just basically means a trait is found in a majority of a certain population group and not another. It could be the result of 1 gene or 100 genes. If you are breeding and not seeing the simple results of a monogenetic trait (everything else on the calculator) then you really can't determine the results with any sort of accuracy, unless you knew how many genes cause it. That is cut and dry.

Even if giving the first generation the name, how do you prove anything afterwards? I'll try to explain what I have rolling through my head...
Pick a random number and say that is the amount of genes needed to cause the trait, so ill use 4, could be more, could be less. As you can see the problem already is we are already speculating.
Since it is a locality trait, chances are good those those genes homozyous. Again speculating but we will roll with it.
Hog island hypo (homozygous genes 1,2,3,4) breeds to a hypo.
50% are normal 50% are hypo and all are het hog island genes (1-4). So this is what they call a het sunset.
So now I take two of those het sunsets breed them together. 25% super hypo, 50% hypo, 20% normal, and then the chances for any of them getting the hog genes....

Male:	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
Female:	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
Percent	Fraction	Traits
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3
0.7813%	1/128	Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 4
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4
3.125%	1/32	Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3
0.7813%	1/128	Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 1, Homozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 4
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 1
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Homozygous 3
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4
3.125%	1/32	Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 3
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Homozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4
3.125%	1/32	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 3
3.125%	1/32	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4
6.25%	1/16	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
3.125%	1/32	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 4
3.125%	1/32	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 3
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4
3.125%	1/32	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 3
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 1
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Homozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 2, Homozygous 3
0.7813%	1/128	Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 3
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 2, Homozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 4
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 2
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 3
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4
3.125%	1/32	Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 2
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 3
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4
1.5625%	1/64	Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 3
0.3906%	1/256	Homozygous 4
0.7813%	1/128	Heterozygous 4
0.3906%	1/256	Normal
View Results Page

That is the problem with polygenetic traits.

so now can you tell me which of those results are sunset and which are not? With this example there are 81 different "Is this a hypo hog?". Lets go farther and add blood and albino, now which one is the bloody sunrise vs just a sunglow blood? I don't see how you can have localities in combo names. Again that is assuming only 4 genes are the cause of the trait..... it could be more. It could also be less, its completely unknown.

I don't want to say they are full of crap but I do feel it is deceptive marketing, unless it is marketed in a way which has a definition of what something is..... which is what we have all been after in the first place lol.

If we knew how many genes caused the trait, then you could work it into the calc. Only 2 or 3 genes causing the trait, might only be dealing with 1/16 or 1/64 chances of getting the trait. But with it being unknown... can't give anything close to accurate results. So I think we need to remove it.

Line bred traits are polygenetic also, I know less about leopard geckos then I know about boas lol, so I really have no idea. I know the engimas are pretty cool looking though. But my guess would be, if they have anything accurate, they figured out how many genes cause the trait and applied it to the calc. It's all pretty simple once you have the information.

[OhhWatALoser]

As for the dominant thing, the calc was written with what I have already stated in mind. So now you get accurate answers when you turn on pos het ouput....

Male:	Hypo
Female:	Hypo
Percent	Fraction	Traits
75%	3/4	33% Possible Super Hypo
25%	1/4	Normal
View Results Page

I see no reason to change it to the established terminology and get less accurate results. Who knows maybe we reverse the misconception.....