none locallity specific bci morp list

[BFE Pets]

after thought.... I have no evidence that the salmon and hypo found in hog island boas are compatible. I can only go by the info that I've found. which says other wise. however I am willing to say this. it is possible that they are allelic sitting on the same locus but not necessarily compatible. idk its making my head hurt. lol Ive pleaded my case i'll let owal decide if he wants to leave it in the calculator.

[Evenstar]

However, to be clear, Hogs are not technically all hypomelanistic. There are Hogs and there are Hypo Hogs - which are referred to as Sunsets. Hogs do have lighter coloration, but when the hypo gene is added, they are then referred to as Sunset Hogs.
I partially agree. From what I've seen true hog island boas are all hypo. if its not hypo its not a pure hog island. also hypo + hog island doesn't make a sunet. hypo + the natural occurring hypo of a hog island boa makes what is called a het sunset. a sunset boa is hypo + hypo + the naturally occurring hypo found only in hog island boas. so to be a sunset boa it has to be a super hypo + hog island hypo.

Personally, I think maybe we should take out the "Hog Island Hypo" choice on the calculator. Partly since Hogs are a specific locality and we aren't including localities, but also because hypomelanism in Hogs is the same hypo gene in BCIs in general. It is, in fact, compatable with the hypo/salmon gene. Therefore, this choice is actually redundant.

This is where we disagree I feel the hog island hypo needs to be in the calculator as it is NOT the same hypo gene found in any other bci. Hog Island boas are a locality. cant argue that. if in fact the hog island hypo and hypo are the same then when you bred a het sunset to a normal all of the offspring should be hypo. because by your explanation they are the same which means a het sunset is in fact just a super hypo 50% hog island locality boa. so all of the offspring would be hypo. can we agree to that? if we can then the naturally occurring hypomelanistic gene found in the hog island boa has to be its own strain and has to be identified separately. Because the breeding trial that I could find did not produce 100% hypo offspring when breeding a het sunset x normal Colombian.

If anyone has other information that I can look into i'd be happy to change my mind and conform to the mass opinion. But until then I have to stick to my guns on this. I spent 3 or so days trying to get a definitive answer to this exact question and could only get one breeding trial and honestly it is from a friend that exports exotics out of panama. its the same friend that has helped me plan my family vacation this summer to coasta rica to go stomp the jungle for wc boas.

***PLEASE if there are any Hog breeders out there that can difinitively clear this up - please chime in! We are friends having a very eduactional discussion, so there is no real argument going on, but we really could use a professional to help us out on this! We want to be able to help others and we want to make sure our genetics calculator is accurate for everyone! Thanks!!***

Here is a teeny bit of information I've gathered over the years on Hog Islands. I follow what you are saying and I do not necessarily disagree - in fact, I'm going to switch around and actually say I do believe you are correct. But, anyhow, here's what I've found and this might help you understand why I'm thinking the way I am.

I will ALSO concede up front that Hog Islands are, in fact, all hypos - according to Marc Norrie, they are a "naturally occurring form of hypomelanism".

The following is found on Marc Norrie's site, Selective Bred Reptiles, http://www.selectivebred.com/collectiondt.asp?ID=11
"Hypo Hogs are produced by breeding a hypo melanistic Boa to a Hog Island Boa. As Hog Island Boas are a naturaly occuring Hypomelanistic locale, when combined with the Hypo morph you get an exaggerated hypo appearance in the offspring. This can then be taken one step further by breeding them together to produce the stunning Sunset Boa, which is effectively a super Hypo Hog."

This does, however, suggest that the "hog hypo" IS compatable with the hypo gene in other BCIs - "As Hog Island Boas are a naturaly occuring Hypo melanistic locale, when combined with the Hypo morph you get an exaggerated hypo appearance in the offspring."

I have since found a thread on redtailboas.com that has a discussion about this very topic. I believe they are proving your point, Damon! Here is the link. But I am going to agree with you totally on this: this is all making my head hurt........... This is a perfect example of why a genetics calculator for boas has not been attempted until now!!! LoL....

http://www.redtailboas.com/f17/sunse...nd-boas-17183/ It's a little hard to read, but if you scroll down a little and you'll find where they begin talking about the hypo gene itself.

So I think we should, in fact, leave "Hog Island Hypo" on the calculator. I am sure we'll be tweaking it a lot as we go along. All we can do at the moment is the best we can with what we have - and we've done very well so far indeed!!

[BFE Pets]

Thank you evenstar! I wasn't trying to argue but just wanted everyone to know I did my homework and took the subject very serious. I wouldn't want to just half-a$$ed anything and put it out there. I even spent an hour on the phone to a breeder in Panama trying to figure it out. Lol honestly the hog island thing was by far the most challenging part of the whole list. Well so far LOL. Hopefully it stays that way and just needs minor tweaks from her out. Thank you all for any input weather or not I agree.

[Evenstar]

Thank you evenstar! I wasn't trying to argue but just wanted everyone to know I did my homework and took the subject very serious. I wouldn't want to just half-a$$ed anything and put it out there. I even spent an hour on the phone to a breeder in Panama trying to figure it out. Lol honestly the hog island thing was by far the most challenging part of the whole list. Well so far LOL. Hopefully it stays that way and just needs minor tweaks from her out. Thank you all for any input weather or not I agree.

Oh I knew you weren't arguing! As I said, we're friends here having a very educational discussion - I know I learned some things today!!

You and OWAL are doing a GREAT job with this - your hard work and care in the project really shows.



And, oh geez, I sure HOPE this is the most challenging thing we have to deal with.....

[OhhWatALoser]

I'm still not sure about the Hog Island thing, They say it is polygenetic, but then treat it like it's not. So far the boa forum hasn't offered much insight into this.

On the boa forum though someone mentioned the hypos you can't really tell the difference between the hypos and super hypos reliably? If this is true it fits the definition of Dominant more than co-dom/Inc-dom.

Your list of information you could put that hypo and motley appear to sit on the same locus. Also T- albino and caramel-hypo T+ albino appear to sit on their own locus.

[Evenstar]

I'm still not sure about the Hog Island thing, They say it is polygenetic, but then treat it like it's not. So far the boa forum hasn't offered much insight into this.

On the boa forum though someone mentioned the hypos you can't really tell the difference between the hypos and super hypos reliably? If this is true it fits the definition of Dominant more than co-dom/Inc-dom.

Your list of information you could put that hypo and motley appear to sit on the same locus. Also T- albino and caramel-hypo T+ albino appear to sit on their own locus.

I think co-dominanation is inconclusive with hypos. However, a super hypo will only produce hypos - even if bred to a normal. A regular hypo will produce a lot of hypos, but not all hypos, when bred to a normal. This has been proven and, therefore, supports the gene being co-dominant. However, the super form is indistinguishable from the visual het. Hypomelanism does not produce a varient super form such as BELs in ball pythons. You cannot tell the difference, visually, from a regular hypo and a super hypo. The super form has to bred in order to be proven.

Hypomelanism is widely accepted in the boa community as co-dominant. I wouldn't worry about treating it in any other way until it is proven otherwise - and that goes for any other gene that is difficult to determine. Of course, we want to be as accurate as possible, but there is only so much we can do with the little information we have.

[OhhWatALoser]

I think co-dominanation is inconclusive with hypos. However, a super hypo will only produce hypos - even if bred to a normal. A regular hypo will produce a lot of hypos, but not all hypos, when bred to a normal. This has been proven and, therefore, supports the gene being co-dominant. However, the super form is indistinguishable from the visual het. Hypomelanism does not produce a varient super form such as BELs in ball pythons. You cannot tell the difference, visually, from a regular hypo and a super hypo. The super form has to bred in order to be proven.

Hypomelanism is widely accepted in the boa community as co-dominant. I wouldn't worry about treating it in any other way until it is proven otherwise - and that goes for any other gene that is difficult to determine. Of course, we want to be as accurate as possible, but there is only so much we can do with the little information we have.

Its one of the misconception in the reptile world. What you describe is the exact definition of dominant. Genetic classification doesn't change the way a gene is treated, it just simply changes how it is classified. Heterozygous = 1 mutant gene (regular hypo, motley, het albino) homozygous = 2 mutant gene (super hypo, super motley,albino)

	Heterozygous	Homozygous
Dominant	Visual	Same Visual
Unproven Dominant	Visual	?????
Co-Dom/Inc-Dom	Visual	Different Visual
Recessive	Not Visual	Visual

If the super hypo and hypo look the same, we have a dominant mutation (like pinstripe in the bps). Motley looks different with two genes vs one gene, so it is co-dom/inc-dom. albino looks normal with 1 gene, but visual with 2, so it is recessive. This classification crap is a lot easier than people think lol. As for unproven dominant, i think its a good way to describe the "dominant" traits that we haven't seen a proven super form of, basically all we know is their not recessive. I made a thread on this if you wish to read more http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...roven-dominant

[Evenstar]

EXCEPT that a super hypo will ONLY produce hypos.

For example, to use a morph in BPs that we all know is proven co-dominant:

Ball Pythons

Lesser x Normal = 50% Lessers, 50% normals

Lesser x Lesser = 50% Lessers, 50% BELs

Super Lesser x normal = 100% Lessers

Super Lesser x Lesser = 100% BELs


Hypomelanism in boas works the same way - just substitute "hypo" for "lesser" in this example and you'll get the same results. And the supers do look different than a regular hypo - they just look SO SIMILAR that it's nearly impossible to know for sure. But a super hypo will be cleaner and brighter, more pink overall than a regular hypo. The problem is that some regular hypos of higher quality are also very clean and bright. It's a pain in the you-know-where.......

[jben]

EXCEPT that a super hypo will ONLY produce hypos.

For example, to use a morph in BPs that we all know is proven co-dominant:

Ball Pythons

Lesser x Normal = 50% Lessers, 50% normals

Lesser x Lesser = 50% Lessers, 50% BELs

Super Lesser x normal = 100% Lessers

Super Lesser x Lesser = 100% BELs

Hypomelanism in boas works the same way - just substitute "hypo" for "lesser" in this example and you'll get the same results. And the supers do look different than a regular hypo - they just look SO SIMILAR that it's nearly impossible to know for sure. But a super hypo will be cleaner and brighter, more pink overall than a regular hypo. The problem is that some regular hypos of higher quality are also very clean and bright. It's a pain in the you-know-where.......

Super Lesser x Lesser = 50% BEL's, 50% Lesser Fixed it for you

[Evenstar]

Super Lesser x Lesser = 50% BEL's, 50% Lesser Fixed it for you

ARgghh!! Darned typos..... Thank you.....