Pet Rat Question

[MrLang]

I breed for food, but my breeders are pets first and foremost. I just set my males up with a huge 4 foot 3 level ferret cage with hammocks and toys everywhere and they LOVE it. You can chat about rats here... people post lots of cute pics etc.

[sorraia]

True. I just feel a bit awkward with it, because I'd be deliberately hiding that fact. Once upon a time it would have freaked me out, and I just don't have the energy to deal with devastated "How could you???"s should it get out that I'm also a snake person.

I know not every rat person feels that way, but I've also seen enough while lurking to give me the impression that it is a possibility. Then again, perhaps there are enough herpers in the pet rat world that it's not entirely the shocker I think it would be. I'm still pretty new to both snakes and rats, and admittedly some of my impressions and concerns could be way off. It's not as if I have any plans of trumpeting "Hey, these pet rats I have are really messing with my snakes' minds!" on a rat forum.

So likely I'm okay

There are some factions of the rat hobby that are VERY antagonistic toward ANYONE that has any relation to herps, whether those herps be rat-eating snakes or not. BUT in my general experience as a long time rat hobbyist (10 years breeding pet rats, over 20 years keeping pet rats), people in general are at least tolerant, if you follow basic rules of respect. Don't talk about how much your snake loves eating rats, and if you live feed don't talk about live feeding. If your snakes eat f/t, that's even better (though some people will still pick arguments, saying there is no way to humanely kill an animal and still make it suitable for food...). I sent you the PM with a recommendation. On that particular forum, you will probably be just fine. If your snakes come up, simply say, "I love both my rats and my snakes. My rats are my pets and won't be fed off. My snakes eat f/t. Enough said." And leave it at that. I gained the reputation of being a very very well respected rat breeder, and I have openly stated I had snakes in the past, and would now openly state I have snakes again. Don't make a big deal out of it, treat other people with respect, and there is rarely an issue.

Amanda, you are close to my neighborhood.

There are LOTS of reptile people who would also be considered rat people if the pet breeders would take us into their clique. So we are considered feeder breeders and get a semi bad reputation. However, we love our ratties just as much.

Feel free to PM me if you want to talk rats. I am sure Missriss2012 will be on here shortly as she is rat crazy too.

The whole "feeder breeder" issue is complicated. So many people in the rat hobby have acquired rats from pet stores, and then end up losing that rat before it reaches a year of age due to some horrible health problem. When you love your pet, this is hard, really hard. Rats CAN live longer than a year old, if properly cared for and if not set up genetically for all kinds of issues. Rats CAN be bred for better health, but it takes dedication, understanding, and work. The common stereotype in the rat hobby is that "feeder breeders" don't care about the health of their animals. They breed for quantity over quality, and as long as the animal lives long enough to feed it off, they don't care about anything else. That stereotype is also used for mass producers of rodents, except that mass producers may also look at color so some of the animals can be sold for a higher price tag as "pets". People in the pet hobby want healthier animals, and since so many unhealthy animals do come from mass produced animals or "feeder breeders", there IS dislike toward those breeders. That's not to say the small scale or pet-only breeder is necessarily better, but it is a stereotype. The other part of that is pet people do NOT like thinking about their beloved pets becoming food. They can't stand the thought of cute fuzzy babies being fed off, or the adults they've grown to love being killed for food. They can't understand how an animal could be used for breeding and then fed off (granted not all "feeder breeders" do that, but that's another stereotype too: when a breeder is "used up" and no longer useful, it is disposed of to make room for the next one). They don't understand how you can love on one pet, and then turn around and kill its brother or sister.

I personally am in a "weird" position. I am smack dab in the middle. I don't like thinking about one pet eating another pet, but at the same time I am a biologist and that's a very basic, real part of nature. I get to see it on the job. I monitor and study an endangered bird. I find the nest, check for eggs, see the eggs hatch, and then one day I may come back and the nest is torn to shreds, chicks gone, eaten by some predator. Sad, but a part of life. I have pet rats, and I feed rats to my snakes. I have dogs and cats who are fed raw, and a base part of their diet is chicken. I also have pet chickens. Sometimes those chicks I raise to be egg-laying hens turn out to be roosters, and I have the choice to give them to someone else to slaughter and butcher, or to do it myself. I choose to do it myself, as that's the bigger benefit than selling them for $1 each, IF I can sell them. I have pet rabbits, and some day would like to raise meat rabbits. It just gives me a different perspective from those who have only ever had pets and are so far removed from their food they don't realize what they eat may have once had a face.

[AmandaJ]

MrLang, thanks

Sorraia, this is all really great insight and information. And ultimately we are dealing with biology. My snakes don't eat my pets, and I feel that by feeding F/T -- this is just my take on it for my peace of mind -- I'm doing what's most humane for both my snakes and their food. I can only do so much, and a snake's got to eat.

Fortunately (for the state of my brain) I'm not breeding and have even taken ridiculous steps to ensure I won't be overrun with potential "free food", so I can still keep a distinct level of separation between the pets and the snake food. Whew.

I'm reading on the forum you suggested and it's very interesting. We'll see how it goes

[aldebono]

Sometimes I think that as a feeder breeder, I can get rid of those problem genetics and breed the good genes faster than the pet breeders as I don't have to place every rat I breed. I am also right in the middle. IMHO, I am breeding some really excellent pet quality rats right now that I am REALLY proud of. Some will be food and others will go to be pets. If I find a problem in one of my lines, I don't have to find someone to adopt that whole line. They are not using space at home, and not in a pet home where they could have problems (health/temperament/etc).

With my breeders that I have no use for genetically, I find other feeder breeder friends who need them. I am way too attached to feed off my adult breeders unless they have an illness. I would love to get into the position where I can work on the longevity of my rats, as I feel that is a huge problem with pets and breeders alike. I want my girls to be healthy enough to continue producing for 2 plus years, even with the strain of harem breeding.

Maybe what some people don't realize- I got into breeding my own rats because I was sick of seeing the poor sickly rats I was getting as feeders every week. Now that I breed my own, I know exactly what kind of care my fuzzies are getting and I know they have a pretty darn good life with treats and pets before they fulfill their purpose. Let's also not forget the fact that they are just so darn cute and fun! Breeding rats gets me though to ball breeding season.

[MrLang]

Maybe what some people don't realize- I got into breeding my own rats because I was sick of seeing the poor sickly rats I was getting as feeders every week. Now that I breed my own, I know exactly what kind of care my fuzzies are getting and I know they have a pretty darn good life with treats and pets before they fulfill their purpose.

This is EXACTLY what I tell people when they like to pretend there's some kind of conflict of interest by me owning pet rats and pet snakes that eat rats.

... it's also the only reason my girlfriend can handle the situation. "If you saw what I'm paying too much money to support right now..."

[sorraia]

Sometimes I think that as a feeder breeder, I can get rid of those problem genetics and breed the good genes faster than the pet breeders as I don't have to place every rat I breed. I am also right in the middle. IMHO, I am breeding some really excellent pet quality rats right now that I am REALLY proud of. Some will be food and others will go to be pets. If I find a problem in one of my lines, I don't have to find someone to adopt that whole line. They are not using space at home, and not in a pet home where they could have problems (health/temperament/etc).

With my breeders that I have no use for genetically, I find other feeder breeder friends who need them. I am way too attached to feed off my adult breeders unless they have an illness. I would love to get into the position where I can work on the longevity of my rats, as I feel that is a huge problem with pets and breeders alike. I want my girls to be healthy enough to continue producing for 2 plus years, even with the strain of harem breeding.

I do agree, quantity does allow you to breed out problems faster than someone who is only producing a few litters a years, because you do have more to select from. That's one of the fundamental disagreements between "pets" and "feeders", unfortunately. The "pets" don't want to see the rats go to food, so the unneeded animals would need to be pet placed. BUT there are only so many homes to go around, and what do you do with the rest of them? "Feeders" have solved that problem: feed them off. If there's a problem that truly is detrimental to the pet population, then from a biological standpoint it IS best that trait be eliminated with NO chance of passing it on. Best way to do that is to "off" that animal. The pet people, however, generally don't remove themselves that way. It is a cute fuzzy face that is just as deserving of life as the healthy one.

I do know there have been some very well respected pet rat breeders who culled their litters. They don't usually advertise that fact though, because then they'd be very much maligned and demonized by the hobby as a whole. Personally... I'd rather see a culled rat fed off, and therefore put to good use, than to simply be killed and thrown out like garbage.

Maybe what some people don't realize- I got into breeding my own rats because I was sick of seeing the poor sickly rats I was getting as feeders every week. Now that I breed my own, I know exactly what kind of care my fuzzies are getting and I know they have a pretty darn good life with treats and pets before they fulfill their purpose. Let's also not forget the fact that they are just so darn cute and fun! Breeding rats gets me though to ball breeding season.

Completely agree! A lot of people don't realize that. They make the (often bad) assumption that all feeder breeders are out to make a quick dollar. Produce as many rats (or mice) as possible in the shortest amount of time and the cheapest way possible. Simply not true in all cases (some sure, but not all!). I personally love what you say about breeding for food so you know what goes into them and you were sick of seeing the sickly rats you were getting. That's an excellent reason to breed your own. That goes along with how I feel about raising my own chickens and meat rabbits. Not everyone has to agree with it, I personally just wish there were more understanding and respect on the issue.