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[meowmeowkazoo]

So my sunglow girl, Dolly has been with me since April of 2012. In that time she's never had a health issue.

In the past month or so she has stopped eating, but I'm not sure if that's because the live food intimidates her (she's used to frozen), or something else.

Just now, I heard what sounded like hissing, so I turned around and she had her mouth wide open, and appeared to be hissing at the glass doors. She then closed her mouth, her body tensed up, and I heard this horrifying loud gurgling sound (like the sound of something being dragged across the bottom of a bathtub, or the sound of someone using a toilet plunger). Almost like she was trying to vomit, or had diarrhea, but she hasn't eaten anything for a month, and it was REALLY loud. She did this hissing, body tensing, then gurgling sound several times. She then stopped, and her head twitched slightly, and she laid back down like nothing happened.

I am seriously freaked out. She is with the rest of my collection after being quarantined, and I have no idea what's going on. I've never read about anything like this, and I despair at the thought of taking her to the vet, who probably doesn't know any more than I do.

She has no discharge in her mouth or around it. Her body weight is good, and other than this she has been acting normally, just a bit shy.

[Evenstar]

That does sound weird. My first impression was RI, but it doesn't really sound like that. Did she actually regurgitate anything? Or did it just seem like maybe she was trying? Has she eaten anything at all in the last month? Are you feeding her f/t or are you still trying to feed live? How often have you tried to feed her?

What is your set up like? Temps? Heating method and control? Cage size? Humidity?

I know these are a lot of questions, but answers will help us help you.

These signs do sound similar to initial symptoms of IBD. I am not one of those who sees IBD in every sick boa - in fact, I think IBD occurs far less than we think it does. However, these symptoms are similar and should not be ignored. I would immediately seperate her from the rest of your collection and put her back in strict quarantine - at least until you figure out for sure what's going on.

Sounds like you don't have a lot of faith in your current herp vet. I would do some research and try to find another vet that has more experience - even if you have to drive a ways to get to one. My own herp vet is 45 minutes away from me. It's not ideal, but worth it to know you're getting your snake good care. So if you can locate one within driving distance, I would take her there asap.

[reptileexperts]

x2 to Kali's post. Need to know more about the husbandry, it sounds close to the start of an RI. I'd look for any kind of possibly dry mucus around the nose and mouth. Get her to her own room again just incase the horrid IBD is present. Make sure you clean yourself VERY thoroughly between messing with her and anything else in your collection to minimize the risk of transmission just in case.

[meowmeowkazoo]

That does sound weird. My first impression was RI, but it doesn't really sound like that. Did she actually regurgitate anything? Or did it just seem like maybe she was trying? Has she eaten anything at all in the last month? Are you feeding her f/t or are you still trying to feed live? How often have you tried to feed her?

What is your set up like? Temps? Heating method and control? Cage size? Humidity?

I know these are a lot of questions, but answers will help us help you.

These signs do sound similar to initial symptoms of IBD. I am not one of those who sees IBD in every sick boa - in fact, I think IBD occurs far less than we think it does. However, these symptoms are similar and should not be ignored. I would immediately seperate her from the rest of your collection and put her back in strict quarantine - at least until you figure out for sure what's going on.

Sounds like you don't have a lot of faith in your current herp vet. I would do some research and try to find another vet that has more experience - even if you have to drive a ways to get to one. My own herp vet is 45 minutes away from me. It's not ideal, but worth it to know you're getting your snake good care. So if you can locate one within driving distance, I would take her there asap.

She didn't regurgitate anything. It sort of seemed like she was trying, but it's hard to say. I almost got the impression that the hissing was out of pain, which was then followed by her body tensing. She hasn't eaten since the beginning of December. I offer food once a week. I was going to try a F/T rat this next week, but after this I think I will wait. She's in a 4x2 boa master cage. She's usually on corrugated paper, but after she defecated a week or so ago I put a bag of pine shavings in, as it was all I had available. She has a large zoo med heat pad under her cage that's attached to a hydrofarm thermostat. I haven't measured humidity in a while, but she had a perfect shed on December 22nd.

Now that I think about it, last week she did receive a TINY nip on her face from a soft fur. I wiped it off and didn't worry about it because it was barely visible.

I will make an appointment tomorrow with a herp vet. She's been in my collection for a few months, so I'm freaked out about the idea of IBD.

[Evenstar]

GET RID OF THE PINE SHAVINGS!!! Pine releases oils that are TOXIC to reptiles!! This could very possibly be your problem!


In addition to that, why try to feed live if she's only eaten f/t before? Stick with that. Do wait a week more before trying again. Do go to the vet - in fact, I'd try to see the vet before trying to feed her again. Try not to be too freaked out about IBD. Remember, I do not think it happens as often as we think it does. But q/t is important even if it's not IBD. You don't want an RI spreading either.

[meowmeowkazoo]

GET RID OF THE PINE SHAVINGS!!! Pine releases oils that are TOXIC to reptiles!! This could very possibly be your problem!


In addition to that, why try to feed live if she's only eaten f/t before? Stick with that. Do wait a week more before trying again. Do go to the vet - in fact, I'd try to see the vet before trying to feed her again. Try not to be too freaked out about IBD. Remember, I do not think it happens as often as we think it does. But q/t is important even if it's not IBD. You don't want an RI spreading either.

I keep most of my snakes on pine. It isn't toxic to them. The only toxic pine is the kind that isn't kiln dried, and this is. I also keep my rats on it with no issues.

She's been being offered live because I raise my own feeders and I ran out of C02 gas. I've been in the middle of a move so I had no time to worry about getting more. She has eaten live with no problems before.

She definitely doesn't have an RI. This is nothing like an RI.

[Evenstar]

Well, a vet is your best bet then.

I would still be highly concerned about the pine shavings. Just because your other snakes have not shown any symptoms doesn't mean it isn't toxic. Even kiln dried pine can still give off fumes.

Coniferous trees - pines, firs, cedars, etc - have "volatile oils" in their wood. They smell pleasant to us (just think of all the pine-scented cleaners and air fresheners out there) but are dangerous to reptiles. Did you know that cedar wood is used in closets for that very reason? The compounds in cedar are deadly to clothes moths and other insects, so using the wood keeps the bugs out. Pine and these other woods are often perfectly fine for rodents. I've kept hamsters and rats for years on pine shavings. But these coniferous oils are not safe for reptiles. Kiln drying these woods does not remove all the oils. Cedar used in closets is often "kiln dried."

When we put snakes and other herps on pine or cedar, they get the same effect. It hurts their respiratory system something awful - imagine living in a room full of smokers for a long time. Pretty soon you'd start to feel some bad effects, right? Snakes on pine can develop breathing problems and even infections. So keeping them on that kind of wood is dangerous and shouldn't ever be done. Aspen doesn't have this problem because it's in a completely different group of trees.

Please take our word for it that pine and its relatives are very bad for snakes. There is a lot of information out there on it too, so you can research online for yourself if you like. Until you get some aspen shavings (or other option), you can put down a couple layers of newspaper. It'll be a safe alternative until a better solution is found. It can often take a very long time for these toxins to build up in a snakes enclosure and boas are often more sensitive in this manner and that could be why yours is showing these symptoms before any of your other snakes.

Good luck with her - I hope you are able to find a solution soon!

[meowmeowkazoo]

Well, a vet is your best bet then.

I would still be highly concerned about the pine shavings. Just because your other snakes have not shown any symptoms doesn't mean it isn't toxic. Even kiln dried pine can still give off fumes.

Coniferous trees - pines, firs, cedars, etc - have "volatile oils" in their wood. They smell pleasant to us (just think of all the pine-scented cleaners and air fresheners out there) but are dangerous to other animals. Did you know that cedar wood is used in closets for that very reason? The compounds in cedar are deadly to clothes moths and other insects, so using the wood keeps the bugs out. Kiln drying these woods does not remove all the oils. Cedar used in closets is often "kiln dried."

When we put snakes and other herps on pine or cedar, they get the same effect. It hurts their respiratory system something awful - imagine living in a room full of smokers for a long time. Pretty soon you'd start to feel some bad effects, right? Snakes on pine can develop breathing problems and even infections. So keeping them on that kind of wood is dangerous and shouldn't ever be done. Aspen doesn't have this problem because it's in a completely different group of trees.

Please take our word for it that pine and its relatives are very bad for snakes. There is a lot of information out there on it too, so you can research online for yourself if you like. Until you get some aspen shavings (or other option), you can put down a couple layers of newspaper. It'll be a safe alternative until a better solution is found. It can often take a very long time for these toxins to build up in a snakes enclosure and boas are often more sensitive in this manner and that could be why yours is showing these symptoms before any of your other snakes.

Good luck with her - I hope you are able to find a solution soon!

"Our" word? I'd rather take Skiploder's word for it, because he has far more experience than either of us. Cedar is harmful, kiln dried pine is not. I have used it for years now.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...49#post1915049

I appreciate your concern, and I will update after I see the vet.

[meowmeowkazoo]

Sorry for being kind of snappish, I'm just worried about my baby. I don't mean to be rude.

On the bright side when I lifted her out of her cage she seemed fine and was just curious about what was going on. She will still be going to the vet tomorrow.

[martin82531]

Sorry for being kind of snappish, I'm just worried about my baby. I don't mean to be rude.

On the bright side when I lifted her out of her cage she seemed fine and was just curious about what was going on. She will still be going to the vet tomorrow.

Please don't take this comment as condescending but wouldn't it be worth a shot trying different substrate since there is an argument on pine just to see if it helps?

Worst case your boa is in the same condition...

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