Building new Wooden Cages lots of questions.

[kitedemon]

The panels from pro helix reptile radiator and there is a German company I don't recall the name of all suggest a min distance of at least 15 inches and some as much as 22. RHPs are designed for arboreal set ups and animals that bask. Royal pythons are neither. Even with a 6 inch for surfaces it means very little room for a hide. When you factor that if the interior is 12 inches tall there is only 10 inches free air inside. I have been running an on going test on a RHP (almost a year now) the results are simple it is not efficient in low terrestrial enclosures. Yes it works but has lots of problems it always generates a vertical gradient top to bottom. You can choose to set the temp for the hide top or floor beside the hide or the floor under the hide. All three locations are different. It is a radiant source so direct line of sight much like the sun. When you go to the beach the sand that is out in the sun is way hot but the sand that has been in shadow all day is not. The hot side hide casts a shadow for the IR from the panel dropping the temp dramatically. The top is hotter than the bottom the outside hotter than the inside. There is no way around this. Probe placement is hard as well there should never be a situation where a snake can shadow a probe from the heat source unless it can easily move under the probe location to a lower level. Where do you place the probe? The only solution I found is to dangle it from the panel centre. It is hard to fully secure so it is ridged. Some have used a hard 90º elbow and glued this to the floor pointing up these two seem to be the best neither is good. IMO RHP do not belong in enclosures less that 16-18 inches and are best used as designed vertically. Yes they can be adapted to a horizontal situation but the additional cost and complication for what gain so the snake can bask?

A PVC floor is superior in every way to wood, UTH run heat floor to ceiling so the hottest spot is where the snake will be rather than setting the hottest spot to where the snake is not and using the coolest location of the cage to be the correct temp for the snake. Anything about this is too hot. How does this seem like a good idea? It is a solution to a problem you have not made yet the wooden enclosure floor.


I use a 2 foot fluorescent tube in a 24x30x14 enclosure with a room temp of 66º it holds 76-79ºF ambient (sole heat source) the face of the lights hit about 90-100º 60º-100º less than RHPs It heats air not objects (like RHPs) so they make a great air heater as well as lights. The blue LED electronics run about 8-10º cooler so they do well over night.

If you choose to gel a fluorescent light I would use Rosco gels they will take the heat no problem. I would still suggest LED over this.
http://www.rosco.com/filters/index.cfm

[norwegn113]

being new to this forum, I do not want to offend anyone but i have to say that I totally disagree with the information you provided. radiant heat panels ARE a very efficient way to provide an excellent gradiant. The problem with radiant heat is that it cant be accurately be measured by itself like objects that heat the air. Here is a perfect example, take a 30 deg. cloudy day and go outside wearing a white shirt, you will feel cold. Now take the same 30deg day add some Sun and put on a black shirt and you will feel warm ,if not sweat. However it was still 30 deg in both situations according to the thermometer. radiant heat warms objects which in turn heat the air,raising ambiant temps as a byproduct. In nature ball pythons spend most of their time hiding termite mounds or animal burrows that have been warmed by the OVERHEAD heat of the suns rays. there is no such thing as "belly heat" in the wild,only basking. Im not sure how you have your panels set up but mine work perfectly. I measure ambiant temps on the hot side at 86deg, cool side temps are set at 79 deg. and surface temps are measured by infrared gun at 92 deg. on the basking rock directly under the panel. I use a large flat rock to absorb the heat and warm the air. As for probe placement, I have my thermostat prob on the cool side and it is set to 79deg. ,the hot side stays at 86 deg. I place the probe on the cool side because even if the snake shadows the probe its still in no danger of overheating and if it goes back to the hot side it will no longer be shadowing the probe, therefore correcting the problem. Snakes are very smart and will self regulate if you give them both a cool sidde and a hot side

[norwegn113]

bottom line is if your panels are sized correctly and are on a proportional thermostat, and you are not getting satisfactory results , then something is wrong with the setup. wood enclosures offer superior insulating factors, and despite what many may think there are ways to use UTH in the floor if built correctly. There is more than just one type of material that can be used with excellent results. Its up to the individuals to choose what works best for their situations and budgets.

[Dark Lady Kat]

bottom line is if your panels are sized correctly and are on a proportional thermostat, and you are not getting satisfactory results , then something is wrong with the setup. wood enclosures offer superior insulating factors, and despite what many may think there are ways to use UTH in the floor if built correctly. There is more than just one type of material that can be used with excellent results. Its up to the individuals to choose what works best for their situations and budgets.

I would have to agree I have been researching this build for the past 6 month in preparation for it when you are looking to drop close to 4000 dollars on an all new set up for multiple reptiles being well informed and doing your research is key instead of building something sub standard and fixing fubars as they come along generally always when you are not in the position to change things majorly in your budget to fix them with out sacrificing something I am a bookkeeper and tax preparer so over the next few month is the highest cash flow in my house ie build time not to mention every body is going through a growth spurt and a cage up-sizing is in order for them in the last 2 sheds alone the BP's have added little over half a foot and the boas have added almost as much as well their current caging will not outlast the growth of another year with out going below 1 sq ft per ft of snake and I like to have 2 sq ft which is what they started at. I am building 5 -8 new cages I haven't decided if I am building the cages for the snakes that are not planned to be bought until this summer yet or not and 2 new lizard enclosures with cabinetry to house their breeding colony food source dubia's. I am confident that when it is all said and done I will not go over my budget but panels and thermostats and humidity control alone will take half the budget to secure, I am quite sure that with 2000 I can acquire all the wood and Plexiglas needed for my builds as the first cage I built was only about 100 in material my time and tools well I love my animals

[Dark Lady Kat]

The panels from pro helix reptile radiator and there is a German company I don't recall the name of all suggest a min distance of at least 15 inches and some as much as 22. RHPs are designed for arboreal set ups and animals that bask. Royal pythons are neither. Even with a 6 inch for surfaces it means very little room for a hide. When you factor that if the interior is 12 inches tall there is only 10 inches free air inside. I have been running an on going test on a RHP (almost a year now) the results are simple it is not efficient in low terrestrial enclosures. Yes it works but has lots of problems it always generates a vertical gradient top to bottom. You can choose to set the temp for the hide top or floor beside the hide or the floor under the hide. All three locations are different. It is a radiant source so direct line of sight much like the sun. When you go to the beach the sand that is out in the sun is way hot but the sand that has been in shadow all day is not. The hot side hide casts a shadow for the IR from the panel dropping the temp dramatically. The top is hotter than the bottom the outside hotter than the inside. There is no way around this. Probe placement is hard as well there should never be a situation where a snake can shadow a probe from the heat source unless it can easily move under the probe location to a lower level. Where do you place the probe? The only solution I found is to dangle it from the panel centre. It is hard to fully secure so it is ridged. Some have used a hard 90º elbow and glued this to the floor pointing up these two seem to be the best neither is good. IMO RHP do not belong in enclosures less that 16-18 inches and are best used as designed vertically. Yes they can be adapted to a horizontal situation but the additional cost and complication for what gain so the snake can bask?

A PVC floor is superior in every way to wood, UTH run heat floor to ceiling so the hottest spot is where the snake will be rather than setting the hottest spot to where the snake is not and using the coolest location of the cage to be the correct temp for the snake. Anything about this is too hot. How does this seem like a good idea? It is a solution to a problem you have not made yet the wooden enclosure floor.


I use a 2 foot fluorescent tube in a 24x30x14 enclosure with a room temp of 66º it holds 76-79ºF ambient (sole heat source) the face of the lights hit about 90-100º 60º-100º less than RHPs It heats air not objects (like RHPs) so they make a great air heater as well as lights. The blue LED electronics run about 8-10º cooler so they do well over night.

If you choose to gel a fluorescent light I would use Rosco gels they will take the heat no problem. I would still suggest LED over this.
http://www.rosco.com/filters/index.cfm

The cages I am building will have an internal height of 18 in the minimum recommended distance is 6 in that to start with will give me 10 in of free space considering the RHP is aprox 2 in thick plus 6 in minimum I am pretty sure I can fit a hide with in 10 inches of free height space and have some to spare I am not sure what you are using to get that I would start with only 10 inches of space when by all consideration I start with 18 in before the panels is installed and only loose 1.75in after installing

[kitedemon]

It is your choice it just seems more complex and expensive for no gain. If the enclosures were complete it is a different issue then it is the only option but with a cheaper and easier option (better in terms of cleaning for certain) I see no reason why. Perhaps more useful with boas as they are semi arboreal and actually may benifit from basking but balls? It is just another adapt a product to do something it wasn't designed to do moment. I have two panels from rb. It works ok but runs cool as I simply refuse to have the top of the hide warmer than 94 degrees and that means the floor is 88 ok I guess but with a uth the floor is 90 spot on and the hide top 88 perfect the correct temp where the snake is and nothing inside is warmer. I only use one now and that is for a bearded dragon it is perfect for him.


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[Dark Lady Kat]

It is your choice it just seems more complex and expensive for no gain. If the enclosures were complete it is a different issue then it is the only option but with a cheaper and easier option (better in terms of cleaning for certain) I see no reason why. Perhaps more useful with boas as they are semi arboreal and actually may benifit from basking but balls? It is just another adapt a product to do something it wasn't designed to do moment. I have two panels from rb. It works ok but runs cool as I simply refuse to have the top of the hide warmer than 94 degrees and that means the floor is 88 ok I guess but with a uth the floor is 90 spot on and the hide top 88 perfect the correct temp where the snake is and nothing inside is warmer. I only use one now and that is for a bearded dragon it is perfect for him.


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I use natural hides for the most part made of hollowed and sanded wood so that the inside is a smooth surface treated and baked to sterilize and cook off any vapors from sealing I never put a hide directly under a heat source I use basking rocks and branches with various cover I have a basking tree in one enclosure now that has a thin line of bamboo around it so that it appears secluded and I have a basking rock in another with a artificial bluegrass outlining that makes the rock feel more secure for my bp and bp do bask they have to regulate their temp just as any other snake would they are not an exception to the rule many will stay in a hide all day if that is where they feel the most secure however it is quite a different story when your snake feels really secure and you watch it roam around its cage day after day finding a new basking or cooling spot or returning to a favorite one and I have one baby bp not even a year old yet that wanders and explores all the varying degrees of hiding spot in a 4 ft enclosure and hardly ever balls up because it feels very secure sure for the first couple of weeks as it got use to the enclosure it ventured out of the hide just a lil and would return soon after and day by day it slowly found its way every where and currently rarely uses its hide mostly it likes to rest under the rock ledge that is only covered on the back and top or in the grass on the basking rock under a che. And no the cage is not built yet that doesn't mean that I haven't started acquiring material like I said this has been a 6 month research project coming into this on heating humidity lighting substrate and so forth to come into the design the dimensions and type of material haven't changed why you ask well because I already have most of the cage itself material from a build I did a few months ago for a friend

[kitedemon]

You are forcing you BP to choose either security or heat. This is against most (all) methods anyone else uses I have ever known. The hides are always recommended on the hot and cool areas. Everyone I know chooses not force a very secretive animal to violate its instinct. So I will rephrase they do not bask in the wild or naturally it is not an instinctual behaviour they are nocturnal.

Go with the RHP, although I would use Epoxy or LP to seal the floor urinates attack paint and becomes difficult to clean. I would still recommend the PVC floor.

Question as a RHP is just a strip of flexwatt in a box, what is the advantage over flexwatt under the floor? Radiant heat is radiant heat either way it has the exact same properties.

[norwegn113]

You are forcing you BP to choose either security or heat. This is against most (all) methods anyone else uses I have ever known. The hides are always recommended on the hot and cool areas. Everyone I know chooses not force a very secretive animal to violate its instinct. So I will rephrase they do not bask in the wild or naturally it is not an instinctual behaviour they are nocturnal.

Go with the RHP, although I would use Epoxy or LP to seal the floor urinates attack paint and becomes difficult to clean. I would still recommend the PVC floor.

Question as a RHP is just a strip of flexwatt in a box, what is the advantage over flexwatt under the floor? Radiant heat is radiant heat either way it has the exact same properties.

You are correct that radiant heat goes against the industry standard because it is still a very new product and many people still are not using it because of a few factors. (1) the cost is MUCH higher than a heat lamp and bulb.... Initially ,but heat lamps burn out and lose intensity in time. manufacturers recommend changing these bulbs once a year and @ roughly $10.00 ea/100W in 10 years that's $100.00 ( the cost of my panel to start with, plus the initial cost of the lamp itself. We wont even talk about electric savings in a 10 year period when you're talking about 100W VS 88W per hour.(2) Many people do not understand the way radiant heat works and because it cant be measured using standard techniques they automatically assume that the product is not doing what it is supposed to, when in fact it is working just fine!! Using Flexwatt as an UTH is not the same as using RHP. UTH only warms the ground directly on top of its location, therefore leaving the rest of the tanks ambient air too cool. Flexwatt in most applications is used in conjunction with some sort of CHE or heat lamp to warm air temps. If you just warm the ground under the animal and the air temps are not correct you are leaving yourself open to RI's You are very limited to the temps that you can set your UTH at due to the fact that your animal is laying on top of it! RHP mount on the top of the cage and other than the occasional "brush up against" your animal will never come in contact with it and your animal definitely can't lay on it, so the temps can run much higher than a UTH. So you will only need 1 piece of equipment vs 2.Every scientific break through is plagued with its nay Sayers because people are afraid of change and like what they feel comfortable with. I personally use RHP and can tell you without a doubt that they work excellently for my ball Pythons. I don't mean to sound like a jerk but Just because one person doesn't like them doesn't mean the product is junk. I'm sure Zoo-Med will love your continued support over the next 25 years of your animals life, me I'm gonna take my savings and buy some really cool morphs!

[norwegn113]

Dark Lady , I also have to say that you are spot on with your figures too about 8 cages costing about $4,000.00. ( go figure an accountant being right with their numbers!) lol. The 7 cages I built cost me $3,900.00 all said and finished! I can tell that you have put in alot of time and effort in research. You are well on your way to making some very cool cages it sounds like. My advice would be is, continue to do research and get the "collective" opinion as no one person is the authority on any thing . That includes me. I may be talking out my Butt , but this is what has worked for me! Here are a few pics of my cages while they were under construction. I do not have any finished pics of them yet but when I get some I will post them. The inserts sit inside the framework that you see to form a "tower" that is 3 separate 2x2x4 cages stacked to make the overall unit 7 foot tall by 4 foot wide! the other tower has 4 separate cages (2) 2x2x7 and (2) 2x2x3'-6" all stacked to make it 7 foot tall by 7 foot wide. both towers match each other!