!!!!And here they are!!!!

[Dark Lady Kat]

The first and last pic look BCA to me. Boa constrictor Amerali

Bolivan red tails.
They have peaked saddles and small tail. Those 2 have small tail vs the standard
imperator boa.

Saddles donesn determine locality.
But things like short tails. Small overall size. And low vertal scale count
Does.
Imo there beautiful Bolivians. Iv had a couple that looked exactly like the first pic.
Bcc boas happen to be some of the largest boas not including anacondas.

What exactly is low ventral scale count and how is it done and I am sure I can get that for you all as well I know they all have papers that go with them and that he dropped a nice some of money on them but it could be a long time till he finds their papers after a move I spoke with him yesterday evening and numbers 1 and 2 are ara something and the pinkish one is a salmon something and he corrected me it is not 1 or 3 that is het albino it is number 2 that carries the albino gene and something about sunglow
Sorry I was in a wreck a couple of days ago and things can get a lil foggy on the meds sorry

[3skulls]

My hypo.









Also found this.

[Dark Lady Kat]

Thank you very much that is more helpful to understand what it is you all are talking about. I will also post some better up close pictures by next weekend from this picture here Isis and Osiris look very similar to the trinidad and venezuela saddles more like trinidad and coloring with the more ashy look like venezuela my count on their saddles is 17 or 18 not real sure if the saddle right above the vent counts

[Balls&burms_DEA]

Well. Can almost garnertee that those are Bolivians. I just re read. 33-34 inch at one year and they look healthy as can be. Yea def no BCC. If they were a year old red tails they would be severely emancipated and not pretty at all lol.
As for pic 2. If he is hypo. (Doesn appear hypo. But that gene varies). He would be het albino. Breed him to another hypo het albino or albino and see if you get sunglows. That would prove him out.

Heres a pic of a pretty clean Bolivian.

https://www.google.com/search?q=boli...0&bih=218#i=15

[3skulls]

What it really comes down is this. Unless you have paper work from a reliable breeder (same as Carpets) you won't know what you have for sure.
There are so many crosses and mutts, people that sold Commons as True Red Tails etc. I think you can get pretty close on guessing but I would never breed them and pass them off as a guess. Just adding to the problem IMO.

With that said, I do have a couple of Boas together now and 2 Carpets that I don't have a history on.
If they produce then I will sell them only as mutts. Release a photo of the Sire and Dam and let the buyer know what's going on. Mutts make great pets, just as dogs do.

Anyway. You have 3 very nice looking Boas and I really like that first one

[Dark Lady Kat]

What it really comes down is this. Unless you have paper work from a reliable breeder (same as Carpets) you won't know what you have for sure.
There are so many crosses and mutts, people that sold Commons as True Red Tails etc. I think you can get pretty close on guessing but I would never breed them and pass them off as a guess. Just adding to the problem IMO.

With that said, I do have a couple of Boas together now and 2 Carpets that I don't have a history on.
If they produce then I will sell them only as mutts. Release a photo of the Sire and Dam and let the buyer know what's going on. Mutts make great pets, just as dogs do.

Anyway. You have 3 very nice looking Boas and I really like that first one

So another words you are saying if they are crosses from two different localities they are no good as breeders? clarification

complaint - I am not sure how much any breeder knows about where a particular snake is from unless they personally caught it in the wild and then produced from there and every generation handed paperwork to show such. IMO most boas available outside of any of these localities has probably at one point or another been crossed with something

I do understand your take on things that pure bloodlines are best it was much easier with dogs papers you could order their history all the way back to the original sire and damn if you choose to go that far. I have heard of having them DNA tested does anyone know anything about that?

I know they have papers but I shouldn't in your opinion breed the male BCC, Bolivia, ... to the Salmon Female

I am learning Boas and appreciate all the help I am just trying to understand

[3skulls]

I'm not saying you shouldn't breed them. I'm saying if you do, you shouldn't label them as a guess. Let the buyer know that there is no paper work, that they could be crossed, etc.

I think it becomes a problem when people dont pass this info along.

Say a kid goes to show and picks up a BCI labeled as a Red Tail Boa. 5 years from now he gets into breeding without doing a ton of reserch. He picks up a BCC thinking he wants to breed Red Tails. Crosses it with the BCI, say the litter comes out looking more like true BCCs. Now he has his own booth selling a cross as a true form. Then the cycle starts all over.
If no one keeps the bloodlines pure, then we might lose them forever one day.

Remember I said I have a couple of pairs going now. I don't have full history or papers. I will not be selling them as a pure line of anything. It would be a guess at best.


I think the bigger breeders of locality Boas have paper work going back to were the snake was caught in the wild.

There are the purest out there.

[Evenstar]

So another words you are saying if they are crosses from two different localities they are no good as breeders? clarification

Not necessarily. Just that you would have to label them as crosses right from the get-go.

complaint - I am not sure how much any breeder knows about where a particular snake is from unless they personally caught it in the wild and then produced from there and every generation handed paperwork to show such. IMO most boas available outside of any of these localities has probably at one point or another been crossed with something

They know because there are ways to document the bloodlines. It's just like keeping detailed records and pedigrees when breeding purebred dogs or horses.

I do understand your take on things that pure bloodlines are best it was much easier with dogs papers you could order their history all the way back to the original sire and damn if you choose to go that far. I have heard of having them DNA tested does anyone know anything about that?

DNA testing can be done on horses and dogs, but it will only tell you if one dog is related to another - you can't get a detailed pedigree from DNA testing alone. I've raised German Shepherds from Germany for years. Yes, I know about this. As far as I know, it is not possible with reptiles - yet.

I know they have papers but I shouldn't in your opinion breed the male BCC, Bolivia, ... to the Salmon Female

No, in my opinion you should not. That would be crossing a BCC (or possibly a BCA, lol) with a BCI. Most boa people frown on crossing subspecies. Incidentally, subspecies is different from locality. I am NOT saying that you should not breed any of these snakes, I just think that you should not breed the BCI to either of the BCCs.

I am learning Boas and appreciate all the help I am just trying to understand

Never be afraid to ask questions!

Also, if in fact that BCI is a hypo and that is the one that is het for albino, then it would be considered double het for sunglow. Sunglows exhibit both the hypo and albino traits in one snake. You would, however, have to breed it to another snake that is, or is het for, albino. Albino is a recessive trait and both parents must carry the gene in order to produce it in their offspring.

[Evenstar]

And for further research, here is a breakdown of boa localities and sub-species as well as the ventral scale counts.





(Originally posted by Vypyrz)

Red Tail Boas are classified as follows:

Genus : Species : Sub-species : Locality

Boa Constrictor Constrictor (BCC)- These are the "true red tails." These are generally the largest in size and maintain their red tails into adulthood. The tail will normally have a distinct red color that ranges from bright red to a deeper, more blood red color. They come from:

Peru
Brazil
Venezuela
Suriname
Guyana


Boa Constrictor Imperator (BCI)- This is the largest group of boa constrictors. Their tail color normally ranges from a darker, more subdued red to a more common brown color. They include the boas from Central America:

Colombia (Nearly all "morphs" of boas come this group)
Panama
Costa Rica
Nicaraqua
Mexico: Tamaulipas, Tarahumara
and the insular islands:
Hogg Island
Caulker Cay
Crawl Cay
Corn Island


Boa Constrictor Amarali (BCA)- Bolivian boa constrictors

Boa Constrictor Longicauda (BCL)- These come from the Tumbes region of Peru. They are also known as the Peruvian Long-tail Boa, as they have a higher scale count from their vent to tail tip than the Peruvian BCC.

Boa Constrictor Occidentalis (BCO)- Argentine boa constrictors.

Boa Constrictor Sabogae (BCS)- Pearl Island boa constrictors


As well as, some of the lesser known sub-species:

Boa Constrictor Nebulosa- Dominican Republic, Lesser Antilles
Boa Constrictor Orophias- St. Lucia
Boa Constrictor Melanogaster- Ecuador Black Belly


It is best to research each of these, as they have different sizes, colorings, and growth rates. Here are a few websites to help you get started, where the different sub-species of Boa Constrictor are discussed and described:

http://www.boa-constrictors.com/com/com.html

http://www.cuttingedgeherp.com/contactinformation/

http://www.riobravoreptiles.com/index.htm


Physical Differences:

-Saddle Shape: Generally the BCI saddles will have a rounder apearance, looking something like this: ( ) ( ) ( ), whereas the BCC saddles generally have an apex in the saddles, much like this: } { } { } { } . While this is a good marker, it is not always reliable.

-Head Shape: The head shape between BCC and BCI may be hard to detect in neonates, but from about 1 year in age, the differences become more apparent. The BCC generally have less pronounced jaw muscles, giving the head a more slender, longer, or uniformly tapered appearance, with a more pointed shaped nose. Also, the size of the head will appear larger in relation to the size of the body in the neck area. The BCI generally has more pronounced jaw muscles and a more blunt or broader looking nose, giving the head a shorter appearance. Also the BCI head will appear smaller in relation to the size of the body in the neck area.

-Scale Count: Scale count is another indicator of Boa type, however, since alot of the numbers overlap, it should not be relied on solely. Scale count + Head shape is the most accurate method of determining the type of Boa that you have. If you are looking for a specific locale of BCC or BCI, the easiest way to ensure that you are getting what you want is to buy from a reputable breeder who will guarantee the genetics.
Here is a chart that was posted on another forum with some basic scale and saddle counts. I left the authors name in the post so that he can recieve credit:

Here are the scale counts for you.

BCC
scale counts - 75 to 95 dorsal rows.
227 to 250 ventrals.
49 to 62 subcaudals.
Average 15 to 21 saddles.

BCI
scale counts - 56 to 79 dorsal rows.
225 to 253 ventrals.
47 to 65 subcaudals.
Average 22 to 30 saddles.

BCA ( Amaral Boa)
scale counts - 71 to 79 dorsal rows.
226 to 237 ventrals.
43 to 52 subcaudals.
Average 22 saddles.

BCL (Longicauada)
scale counts - 60 to 76 dorsal rows.
243 to 247 ventrals.
50 to 67 subcaudals.
Average 19 to 21 saddles.

BCO (Occidentalis)
scale counts - 65 to 87 dorsal rows.
242 to 251 ventrals.
45 subcaudals.
Average 22 to 30 saddles.



For those who are doing research or looking for care info, the following links are to the different sections of "The Ultimate Boa Constrictor Care Guide" by Clay English:

http://www.redtailboas.com/f110/part...ew-line-40589/
http://www.redtailboas.com/f110/part...-online-40590/
http://www.redtailboas.com/f110/part...-online-40591/
http://www.redtailboas.com/f110/emer...-online-40594/
http://www.redtailboas.com/f110/feed...ew-line-40593/
http://www.redtailboas.com/f110/inst...-online-40592/

You can also download the entire guide in PDF format free by going to this link and registering:

http://www.redtailboas.com/f110/down...ion-3-a-31312/

Also, here is a fairly in-depth article by Gus Rentfro, Rio Bravo Reptiles, on Boa Constrictor care:

http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/sna...tail-boas.html

Hopefully, all of these links and info will help those doing research, or the keeper who is just looking for some additional resources and info...

-Vypyrz-

[3skulls]

Awesome info. Thanks for posting!