OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system

[Austin C.]

I don't know if it's just me, but 90% of the venomous keepers I've come across are extremely condescending and rude when it comes to people who don't keep venomous or do things like they do. I keep my carpet python's in visions and boaphiles with perches to climb on etc but my smaller snakes stay in racks with newspaper and a water bowl and they do just fine. Big vivs are expensive and not exactly in most peoples price range to go buy 20 of them because they have that many snakes. It's easier and cheaper to buy a rack or build one for about the same price as 1 nice viv and you have 5-10 spots for snakes instead of 1. Like you said it's your opinion, but everyone has one and so far the majority are against you and the way you treat the passionate people on this forum. Your just another venomous keeping bully who thinks his way is the way and nobody else should do anything different. And for one I didn't rip any of my animals from there natural habitat so how would they know what is natural and what is not? As long as husbandry is correct and your snake is healthy keep your snake how ever you please.

[Crotalids]

Thus why I keep my GTPs and ATBs in semi-naturalistic enclosures. I use fake plants and cypress mulch.

Lets face the facts: For those of us who choose to keep a large number of animals, the bare minimum is what is healthiest for the animal, and easiest for the keeper to maintain. Very few people with one or two snakes keep them in bare bones setups. That is totally cool. But for me, I wouldn't be able to handle cleaning out 20+ naturalistic vivs. I can still provide the animals with food, water, and a clean place to hang out.

Its not really that a minimalistic setup gets a stressed snake to eat as much as it is about easily meeting its temperature and humidity requirements, and making it feel safe. People often suggest a bare bones setup over a naturalistic setup because for an inexperienced keeper, there are less variables to deal with in a bare bones setup, which means the keeper will have an easier time maintaining the required environment.

I too often see enormous aquariums with few hides and unregulated heat sources being used by new keepers. This is not the proper way to do a naturalistic enclosure.

Healthiest for the animal? Really..I wonder how any of your snakes are more healthy than mine.

I'm sorry but it's not rocket science to set up a naturalistic tank. Those individuals most of them time are just plain stupid (apart from if they're very young).

About hots it is useless to say that. I am saying that we all have opinions and just like you with tubs mine is about hots the only difference is I don't attack people that want to keep hots. Just as you shouldn't attack people saying they are not passionate about keeping their BP or anything else in a way that they have been kept for years and years.

But we have gotten so far off the point of the OP that almost none one this thread has to do with his question.

To the OP I think you just need to explain to your friends about the places that a BP lives and tell them that they are more than comfortable in their enclosures.

Just because they've been kept that way, doesn't mean it's right.

Did he really just say people who provide their balls with enrichment? So they are like parrots now . . . makes perfect since why mine are so depressed. I'm glad I took them to the pet psychic that I saw on the add while I was putting newspaper down in my retics cage . . .

I think you're naive to think a snake doesn't receive mental stimulation from a more elaborate set up. The picture i posted earlier of a Royal set up, is a friends, their royal is very active and i'm 100% it is more active than ones kept with the bare minimum.

For science and reaserch professionals keep HOTS in tubs! Why in the world would they set up thousands of tanks with decor????? Come on man!

Because they are not keeping them as pets! Even Kentucky Reptile Zoo manages to keep their snakes they use for extractions on a decent substrate.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know if it's just me, but 90% of the venomous keepers I've come across are extremely condescending and rude when it comes to people who don't keep venomous or do things like they do. I keep my carpet python's in visions and boaphiles with perches to climb on etc but my smaller snakes stay in racks with newspaper and a water bowl and they do just fine. Big vivs are expensive and not exactly in most peoples price range to go buy 20 of them because they have that many snakes. It's easier and cheaper to buy a rack or build one for about the same price as 1 nice viv and you have 5-10 spots for snakes instead of 1. Like you said it's your opinion, but everyone has one and so far the majority are against you and the way you treat the passionate people on this forum. Your just another venomous keeping bully who thinks his way is the way and nobody else should do anything different. And for one I didn't rip any of my animals from there natural habitat so how would they know what is natural and what is not? As long as husbandry is correct and your snake is healthy keep your snake how ever you please.

I couldn't care less if you keep venomous or not. It has nothing to do with that. A lot of my friends just keep non venomous, doesn't bother me.

Yes of course people on here have disagreed with me, that's fine. But that's on this forum, if you were to go on the European forums etc, you will see more people prefer to give naturalistic set ups than minimalistic. And from my friends, only 1 person i know keeps them in a racking system on paper out of 60 odd people.

[Kinra]

I'm not saying all Royal owners, It's the ones who provide inadequate space and minimal decor that would provide some enrichment (You cannot say an elaborate set up wouldn't stimulate the snakes mind more than a boring one!)

Snakes are very basic creatures, I don't think providing them with a log to crawl over is going to provide them enrichment. As I said, my boas are in cages with decorations and they are not inclined to move, and we are talking about a species that is vastly different from ball pythons. Boas are known to climb on occasion, but the only time mine ever leave their hide and climb is when they are shedding. Snakes are very basic animals and I don't think enrichment falls into their needs. If you can provide me with some concrete proof that snakes need sometime of enrichment because they are unhappy I would gladly concede the point to you.

What I have taken offense to is that you seem to think that because I (and other like me) keep my snakes on paper towels/news paper that I lack passion. I keep my snakes on paper towels because it's the easiest thing I have found to clean and it forces me to do a full clean every time. I feel my snakes are in a much more sanitary conditions when I have to take everything out and clean it. I've tried keeping my snakes on aspen or cypress mulch and it just didn't work for me. My Kenyan sand boas are the only ones who get substrate they can burrow into because they are the only ones who need it. My passion for my reptiles runs deep. I spend over an hour every day checking on everyone and making sure they are okay. My setup may be minimal, but as I have said before replicating a naturalistic environment isn't part of my passion and doesn't harm my animals. I get great joy from being able to share my reptiles and my hobby.

[Kaorte]

I never said one way was healthier than the other, you are misunderstanding me. I am saying that it is much harder to maintain a clean environment in a naturalistic enclosure than it is in a tub setup. Can it be done? No doubt! You are doing it right now! But it can be very time consuming to maintain especially when you are looking at 20+ snakes. I know I wouldn't have time to clean out 25 naturalistic enclosures, so I use tubs instead. I am choosing the method that is healthier for my animals because I know I will not be able to care for them properly if they are housed differently.

For newbies, setting up a tank can be very complicated! It doesn't mean they are stupid if they can't do it. Everyone makes mistakes when starting out.

Do you know for a fact that your snakes are more mentally stimulated by their more natural environment? If you do have some sort of study you are referring to I would love to see the evidence. It might actually change my mind. Moving around more is not proof of mental stimulation in my opinion. It can be interpreted in many ways.

[DooLittle]

[Austin C.]

Ok that's a European forum they do what they do, we live in the US and we do what we do. Case and point my animals are healthy and eat readily so I see no reason to go up and over my head to setup every cage with sand or aspen and hides and perches and fake plants it's a lot of work for people who have 15+ animals to clean naturalistic vivs like that every week I should know I clean snakes for a living. My personal animals aren't suffering so there's really no argument here. Now if my animals were sickly not eating and losing weight then I would consider a change up but that hasn't happened in the last 4 years I've been keeping.. it's not going to happen now.

[RoseyReps]

It's got nothing to do with being rude, you're acting like one of those religious maniacs that takes offense to the slightest comment made against their beliefs. If you believe what you're doing is correct, why does it bother you what i think? I certainly couldn't care less what people thought of my set ups lol.

Would you also take offense to the fact I don't feel the need to keep any non venomous snake and never have, because i don't find them attractive to look at?

It's all opinions at the end of the day, and i wouldn't ever be offended by someones opinion.

So, you're saying I'm acting like someone who's...what's the word...oh fiddlestix...oh wait..PASSIONATE. Right. I'm not a religious maniac, quite the opposite in fact, agnostic. But, I do appreciate you announcing my PASSION on the subject. I keep 2 pythons in vivs, with hides, cypress bedding, and my younger one has a bush or two to make her more secure. I keep one, and soon all except my largest, in a rack. All of my tubs have 2 hides, cypress mulch, and at least a piece of cork bark. I do this because I have a very small collection, and I can. I have a LOT of extra time being a stay at home mom, so it keeps me busy.

You are being very thick headed about the point of most of the communities complaints. Some of them are debating housing techniques, and that's great. But the majority of us are still passionately debating with you because of your condescending demeanor, and downright disrespect for other people.

I don't mind that you don't like the way some people keep their pets, I don't like the way some people keep their pets, bob over there doesn't like the way I keep my pets (sorry to any real bobs, just an example) etc. That doesn't bother me in the least. THAT is each person's opinion. The problem is you throwing everyone who does it a different way under the bus. If you feel so very strongly about the way others keep their animals, so strongly that you form opinions about them without even knowing them, calling them not passionate, and only looking for money...well who's the religious maniac now? You are generalizing people based on your passionate opinion of what you believe is best for snakes, and passionate keepers are getting POd about it.

Let's say this, now, I don't believe this personally, as I love HOTS and think they are beautiful etc, and more power to anyone who is capable of working with them...but for example... I were to make the statement "I keep non venomous pythons, and those that keep venomous snakes are just in it for the wow factor. They endanger hundreds of people by keeping venomous animals in their homes. Anyone who keeps venomous snakes in their home is just immature and reckless with something to prove."

That is profoundly idiotic to say. (What I just said)

But it is lumping up, stereotyping, a group of people, and that is what you are doing. That's great that all your UK friends keep their bps in natural vivs. Super awesome, here's a sticker *star sticker!* But that still doesn't cover why you have to treat other human beings like trash because they don't agree with you. Treat others as you wish to be treated, until they prove otherwise...in which case, release the hounds... Or something.. *shrug*

Sorry for the delay, was trying to take a nap

Edit: Lol DooLittle, I can has some?

[Crotalids]

Anyway...We just keep going round in circles.

Sorry if i caused offense, i didn't mean to. I'm not that type of person. Maybe i was a bit strong with me saying it's a lack of passion, I understand people do things a different way. I should've said something like 'It's a lack of willingness to put the extra time in to clean naturalistic enclosures?' lol.

I'm in no position to create a study, I'm a Physicist not a Biologist. Maybe someone will be able to create a more in depth study into the capacity of a snakes brain to differentiate between set ups etc, who knows.

Oh and don't think that i think i'm a superior keeper because i keep venomous snakes, venomous keepers are not a special breed of human - although some like to think so!

[Crotalids]

So, you're saying I'm acting like someone who's...what's the word...oh fiddlestix...oh wait..PASSIONATE. Right. I'm not a religious maniac, quite the opposite in fact, agnostic. But, I do appreciate you announcing my PASSION on the subject. I keep 2 pythons in vivs, with hides, cypress bedding, and my younger one has a bush or two to make her more secure. I keep one, and soon all except my largest, in a rack. All of my tubs have 2 hides, cypress mulch, and at least a piece of cork bark. I do this because I have a very small collection, and I can. I have a LOT of extra time being a stay at home mom, so it keeps me busy.

You are being very thick headed about the point of most of the communities complaints. Some of them are debating housing techniques, and that's great. But the majority of us are still passionately debating with you because of your condescending demeanor, and downright disrespect for other people.

I don't mind that you don't like the way some people keep their pets, I don't like the way some people keep their pets, bob over there doesn't like the way I keep my pets (sorry to any real bobs, just an example) etc. That doesn't bother me in the least. THAT is each person's opinion. The problem is you throwing everyone who does it a different way under the bus. If you feel so very strongly about the way others keep their animals, so strongly that you form opinions about them without even knowing them, calling them not passionate, and only looking for money...well who's the religious maniac now? You are generalizing people based on your passionate opinion of what you believe is best for snakes, and passionate keepers are getting POd about it.

Let's say this, now, I don't believe this personally, as I love HOTS and think they are beautiful etc, and more power to anyone who is capable of working with them...but for example... I were to make the statement "I keep non venomous pythons, and those that keep venomous snakes are just in it for the wow factor. They endanger hundreds of people by keeping venomous animals in their homes. Anyone who keeps venomous snakes in their home is just immature and reckless with something to prove."

That is profoundly idiotic to say. (What I just said)

But it is lumping up, stereotyping, a group of people, and that is what you are doing. That's great that all your UK friends keep their bps in natural vivs. Super awesome, here's a sticker *star sticker!* But that still doesn't cover why you have to treat other human beings like trash because they don't agree with you. Treat others as you wish to be treated, until they prove otherwise...in which case, release the hounds... Or something.. *shrug*

Sorry for the delay, was trying to take a nap

It's just an opinion that's my point, it shouldn't be offensive. If it makes you annoyed, then all you have to do is argue your point and 'show me the light'.

If someone did say that about venomous keepers, i couldn't care less. I know what i do, and why i do it - simple as that. Although i agree that some keepers do just keep venomous because they're venomous. I can count on one hand how many people have seen my collection in real life, as the snakes are for me not for others

But i do think people over exaggerate just how much time it takes to look after these animals. I've got 20 reptiles at the moment, and probably in a week it takes me maybe an hour all together to look after them. Not much...all with naturalistic set ups. Maybe i'm just good at multi-tasking and have low maintenance reptiles lol.

Which is probably true..My rattlesnakes are only fed once every 2-3 weeks, Gaboons every 2-3 weeks - Bathed once a week, White lips every 1.5-2 weeks - sprayed every other day, Cobra fed every 1-2 weeks. And my various lizards are just fed every day and water bowls changed every 2 days.

[satomi325]

I think you're naive to think a snake doesn't receive mental stimulation from a more elaborate set up. The picture i posted earlier of a Royal set up, is a friends, their royal is very active and i'm 100% it is more active than ones kept with the bare minimum.

Ok. Let me get this straight. You're arguing about ball python husbandry on a ball python forum with ball python keepers who have kept these snakes for years and you don't even own one or have ever owned a ball??
(you mentioned this in your very first thread)



Ball pythons aren't generally active snakes. Basic Ball Pythons 101 - The more active they are, that means something is wrong with the husbandry or set up.
This is why they make horrid display animals. They are sound and 'happy' when hiding. Activity means they are stressed and are 'trying to find a way out'.
The reason why people do the things they do is because it works. I'm sure tons of people have tried a verity of set ups ranging from bare racks to pvc enclosures to glass tanks and so on. People have been doing this for years and have found that ball pythons (specifically) do very well in a tighter enclosure with minimalistic set up than other species. Ball pythons are a species known to be extremely picky and rather sensitive to their husbandry. If a bare, tight set up didn't work, they wouldn't thrive in captivity. With that said, they do better in tighter enclosures than extra large. Display enclosures can work for a ball python, but it really needs to be cluttered up to make them feel secure in place of a tighter enclosure. Insecure ball pythons go off feed and stress easily.

Balls in the wild aren't roaming around constantly. They're in a rodent burrow or termite mound. If you've seen an ASF, they're not very large. I can't imagine their burrows are very large either....And yeah... sitting underground must be EXTREMELY enriching................. I can't imagine how to replicate such an enriching setting...


Like everyone else said, they're in there 90% of the time for food and shelter. They are nocturnal animals so they don't tend to come out during the day. The only reasons they leave their shelter other than for breeding is because the resources(food) have been depleted and they travel to another burrow or mound to take up residence and eat. Since we provide food and water, they have no need to look for another 'burrow'.

Your argument works great for other species, but it's really pointless for a ball.....

I wish I could put my ball pythons in an elaborate set up. I think they're gorgeous.
I use a simple rack system because they seem to do the best in it. And I choose their comfort over my desire of seeing an visually aesthetic enclosure. Some people have beautiful set ups for their balls, but it's really no greater than a rack. The visual is more for human want than ball python need.
Also since ball pythons tend to hide 90% of the time, I would rather dedicate that elaborate enclosure to some other species that would utilize the space and set up.



I do agree with you on the evolution part, however.
Ball pythons are not 'domesticated'. Domesticated would mean that they are entirely different from their wild counterparts in Africa.
And they're not.