OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system

[Valentine Pirate]

I have nothing against tubs i have already said that...

As I stated, I'm not interested in this particular part of the thread (opinions have all been clearly stated, mine is a "whatever's your preference as long as the animal is healthy and not stressed") was making the point that it's hard for non-herpers to accept them

[gsarchie]

Crotalids,

You're enclosures are beautiful and I especially love your Crotalus horridus enclosure. It looks very realistic and similar to where I would find the radio-tagged TRs that I worked with while I was at KU. However, I never once found a snake out, as yours are, in the open. Once we knew that we were right on top of them (from the strength of the signal that we picked up with our antenna), it always took a good while to actally locate them, if we could locate them at all, in the brush/leaves/sticks/etc. Many times they would remain in the same place for up to a week (we went out 3 to 4 times a week to take readings with a GPS on their location to determine things such as home range and distance traveled in a summer) before moving, but if we EVER messed with them for any reason they would not be in that same hiding spot the next time that we went out. Based on these observsations, as a biologist who specialized in herpetology while at school, I would feel safe saying that 1)these animals are incredibly secretive and 2) that they hate human interaction. Even before I ever worked with them my professor informed me that they are a species that is exceptionally sensitive to human disturbance and that if you would catch one in a rough manner (i.e. squeezing it with tongs, fighting with it as it is trying to escape, etc.) then it will NEVER, that's NEVER, return to that location again. I've also read a published paper dealing with stress hormones in Agkistrodon contortrix. They took blood samples from animals immediately upon capture and then took more samples after being handled for a brief period of time (5 minutes if my memory serves me correctly). Turns out that after 5 mintues the levels of a stress hormone that the snakes produce were elevated to a level that were statistically significant when compared to the blood samples taken immediately upon capture. How does this apply here? Being handled, even just moved and placed out of their "natural" habitats for cleaning their enclosure, can stress the animals. I'm sure this can happen with all species of snakes, balls included, but what I am getting at is that keeping wild animals in captivity it anything but "natural."

If you think that the "natural" enclosures that you provide your animals are "natural" to anyone but yourself and other humans looking at them, then you are fooling yourself. Period. I am not knocking you, however, as your display enclosures are beautiful, and I would love to get into keeping hots myself once my sons are a bit older if not once they are out of the house, however you are judging what your snakes feel based on your own uniquely human emotions, which snakes do not have. I am very passionate about my animals and I keep them in tubs for THEIR benefit, not my own. In CO the air is always incredibly dry and when I kept my snakes in tanks I had to mist them every single day while they were in the process of shedding, which is likely at least somewhat stressful for them. Tubs are better for both shedding and feeding response in my experience, and I will continue to keep them in tubs until someone shows me evidence that it is contrary to keeping them in good health. I do use a loose substrate, not newspaper, and what I use is actually quite expensive. While I feel that my snakes are more comfortable on it than they would be on newspaper, no one can offer any evidence to the contrary, so I personally will with hold any judgement on those that do use newspaper.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but I think the problem that people are having with your opinions is that the way that you are expressing them makes it seem like you are passing judgement. While you may be, know that doing that won't go over well when a majority of users on this site are the very people that you are passing judgement on. I'm glad that you are passionate about your animals, as I am sure that they receive the best care that you can provide them, however I can assure you that everyone here is passionate about their animals, otherwise they would keep their love of them to themselves and not use this forum to share their passion with others.

[RoseyReps]

Alright, I'll drop the comparative argument, as it's not going to go anywhere. I agree that your vivs are great for your hots. I do not agree that newspaper is the devils paper, and I also disagree about backgrounds / climbers / silk plants / etc.

But I still think you need to learn when to keep the abrasive part of your opinion to yourself. That is a life lesson. You don't have to be all sugar cookies and rainbows, but thinking before you speak will probably save your butt, and your foot, a lot. You are free to your opinion, and free to voice it whenever, and wherever you like. Always remember though, when you say something offensive, you are free to do so, but you also have to deal with the consequences. In this case it's a simple forum flare up, but in life it can be much more severe. (I'm being serious, not trying to be all weird or anything. I'm a mom, and I mom people...sorry. Hell you might even be older than me, but I'll still mom you anyways hehe) Just keep that in the back of your mind when you are about to insult a large group of people next time. Just because you CAN say it, doesn't mean you should. Alternatively... It just sucks to be rude. I don't like rude people. There's no reason for it. My god I'm tired. Is it bedtime yet?
I like cake. *dances*


Edit: Bruce said it so much more eloquently than I did Oh well, better luck to me next time!

[Kinra]

I have nothing against tubs i have already said that...

You have nothing against tubs, you just think that anyone who uses them lack passion for their reptiles and shouldn't really have them...

I am far more concerned with making sure my ball pythons have proper humidity and heat gradient to care how the cage looks. I keep my boas in Zilla cages, which were designed for reptiles, but I fight with humidity constantly. It's much harder to provide them with the proper environment, and even though they have plenty of hiding spaces, they choose to use the same hide all the time. They're really not interested in mental stimulation, just rats and their hides.

I think you need to get off your high horse about how you have so much more passion than those of us who use tubs. Tanks look amazing, but what does it matter if 99% of the time the nocturnal animal is hiding and you can't see it anyways. You are just looking at an "empty" cage. If I ever got something that was a display animal, such as green tree python I would take the effort to make sure it was in a nice cage where I could see it. I don't think it's fair to say I have less passion than you, or anyone who uses tubs has less passion than you. Passion is expressed in different ways, you choose to express your passion through keeping naturalistic cages, I choose to express mine through sharing them with out people and getting children (and adults) interested in reptiles.

[gsarchie]

But I still think you need to learn when to keep the abrasive part of your opinion to yourself. That is a life lesson. You don't have to be all sugar cookies and rainbows, but thinking before you speak will probably save your butt, and your foot, a lot. You are free to your opinion, and free to voice it whenever, and wherever you like. Always remember though, when you say something offensive, you are free to do so, but you also have to deal with the consequences. In this case it's a simple forum flare up, but in life it can be much more severe. (I'm being serious, not trying to be all weird or anything. I'm a mom, and I mom people...sorry. Hell you might even be older than me, but I'll still mom you anyways hehe) Just keep that in the back of your mind when you are about to insult a large group of people next time. Just because you CAN say it, doesn't mean you should. Alternatively... It just sucks to be rude. I don't like rude people. There's no reason for it. My god I'm tired. Is it bedtime yet?
I like cake. *dances*


Edit: Bruce said it so much more eloquently than I did Oh well, better luck to me next time!

No way! I liked the way that you said it as well, especially the whole mom part. Best quote? "It just sucks to be rude." Spot on, sister! LOL

[Kaorte]

Ah the classic naturalistic viv VS. bare bones tub setup.

I appreciate both. I save my naturalistic enclosures for snakes that will actually utilize them. all of my arboreals are kept in exo terras or large PVC enclosures because, unlike ball pythons, they actually like to be out in the open and are often seen moving around. I'd rather look at that then a $20 "naturalistic" rock cave hide that has my pet snake in it somewhere.

I just don't see the point in keeping a snake that spends 90% of its time hiding in a beautiful viv if I will never (or rarely) see the snake utilizing it.

For venomous animals, I absolutely understand the want and need to replicate the natural environment. I think you have done a great job and I applaud your efforts.

However, not all snakes are the same. Ball pythons in particular are just not the most active of snakes. If I thought keeping them in a naturalistic enclosure would increase their quality of life by a large margin, I would be keeping them in naturalistic tanks.

Here is where it comes down to personal opinion. In my personal opinion, a plastic tub creates the same environment that I would be creating in a naturalistic viv. The only difference is the size and material. The snake doesn't give two poops about what the humid, warm, and cozy environment is made of. It just cares that it feels safe.

To say someone cares less about their animals because they don't enjoy cleaning dirt, leaves, plants, numerous hides, and all the other goodies that go into a naturalistic viv is just not okay by my standards. I enjoy taking care of my animals. Even cleaning up huge poops. I'd rather not go digging through a 6' enclosure looking for said poops though.

It's about what you can handle as a keeper. If you can't handle to maintain 20 naturalistic enclosures, you probably shouldn't have them. But if you can handle 20 simple setups, then by all means go for gold.

There is nothing wrong with either setup. One does not make you any less passionate than the other as long as the animals are healthy.

You will not be able to change the minds of the majority based on your experience with a few hots. I'd just like for you to understand that no one here lacks passion, otherwise there would be no one here! No one is asking you to change your ways, therefor you should do us the same courtesy.

[KingPythons]

While your snakes are probably healthy, I have a big gripe with keepers that just keep snakes in a rack on newspaper and a water bowl.

It shows no passion at all. This is one of my rattlesnakes tanks:

All of the talk saying a rack is less stressful is rubbish. If the set up is correct, there is no reason for any snake to be stressed. I keep my baby rattlers in 3ft Vivs, even when I've had ones that are a few weeks old. None have ever missed a feed because they have plenty of hiding spaces etc.

One of my best friends keeps around 70 rattlesnakes, every single one is in a viv. Every single one has a naturalistic enclosure, that's how it should be. Even when I own 100 odd snakes, there is no way I won't have them all in Vivs, after all they're my pride and joy.

I think u already failed at making a point. Just sayin

[Crotalids]

Crotalids,

You're enclosures are beautiful and I especially love your Crotalus horridus enclosure. It looks very realistic and similar to where I would find the radio-tagged TRs that I worked with while I was at KU. However, I never once found a snake out, as yours are, in the open. Once we knew that we were right on top of them (from the strength of the signal that we picked up with our antenna), it always took a good while to actally locate them, if we could locate them at all, in the brush/leaves/sticks/etc. Many times they would remain in the same place for up to a week (we went out 3 to 4 times a week to take readings with a GPS on their location to determine things such as home range and distance traveled in a summer) before moving, but if we EVER messed with them for any reason they would not be in that same hiding spot the next time that we went out. Based on these observsations, as a biologist who specialized in herpetology while at school, I would feel safe saying that 1)these animals are incredibly secretive and 2) that they hate human interaction. Even before I ever worked with them my professor informed me that they are a species that is exceptionally sensitive to human disturbance and that if you would catch one in a rough manner (i.e. squeezing it with tongs, fighting with it as it is trying to escape, etc.) then it will NEVER, that's NEVER, return to that location again. I've also read a published paper dealing with stress hormones in Agkistrodon contortrix. They took blood samples from animals immediately upon capture and then took more samples after being handled for a brief period of time (5 minutes if my memory serves me correctly). Turns out that after 5 mintues the levels of a stress hormone that the snakes produce were elevated to a level that were statistically significant when compared to the blood samples taken immediately upon capture. How does this apply here? Being handled, even just moved and placed out of their "natural" habitats for cleaning their enclosure, can stress the animals. I'm sure this can happen with all species of snakes, balls included, but what I am getting at is that keeping wild animals in captivity it anything but "natural."

If you think that the "natural" enclosures that you provide your animals are "natural" to anyone but yourself and other humans looking at them, then you are fooling yourself. Period. I am not knocking you, however, as your display enclosures are beautiful, and I would love to get into keeping hots myself once my sons are a bit older if not once they are out of the house, however you are judging what your snakes feel based on your own uniquely human emotions, which snakes do not have. I am very passionate about my animals and I keep them in tubs for THEIR benefit, not my own. In CO the air is always incredibly dry and when I kept my snakes in tanks I had to mist them every single day while they were in the process of shedding, which is likely at least somewhat stressful for them. Tubs are better for both shedding and feeding response in my experience, and I will continue to keep them in tubs until someone shows me evidence that it is contrary to keeping them in good health. I do use a loose substrate, not newspaper, and what I use is actually quite expensive. While I feel that my snakes are more comfortable on it than they would be on newspaper, no one can offer any evidence to the contrary, so I personally will with hold any judgement on those that do use newspaper.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but I think the problem that people are having with your opinions is that the way that you are expressing them makes it seem like you are passing judgement. While you may be, know that doing that won't go over well when a majority of users on this site are the very people that you are passing judgement on. I'm glad that you are passionate about your animals, as I am sure that they receive the best care that you can provide them, however I can assure you that everyone here is passionate about their animals, otherwise they would keep their love of them to themselves and not use this forum to share their passion with others.

I will assume you have run tests on neurological activity in the brain of snakes when in a rub with no decor etc, compared to a full on naturalistic viv? Like i said i think it's silly to assume that snakes 'feel' no benefit from a more interactive environment.

I don't see the whole point about shedding, it's easy to get the correct humidity in any enclosure by making a few adjustments. I keep my arboreal vipers in Exo Terra's which are not enclosed at all, the humidity required for my species is much higher than Royal's and i easily attain 80-90% constantly, never had a bad shedding snake.

You don't have to worry about stress with my snakes, they are only handled when they need to be. The last time i hooked one of my rattlers was 3 weeks ago. Besides you should know yourself, that some snakes in captivity become accustomed to their surroundings and thus will not suffer from as much stress - which is why you can see the horridus out in that manner.

Alright, I'll drop the comparative argument, as it's not going to go anywhere. I agree that your vivs are great for your hots. I do not agree that newspaper is the devils paper, and I also disagree about backgrounds / climbers / silk plants / etc.

But I still think you need to learn when to keep the abrasive part of your opinion to yourself. That is a life lesson. You don't have to be all sugar cookies and rainbows, but thinking before you speak will probably save your butt, and your foot, a lot. You are free to your opinion, and free to voice it whenever, and wherever you like. Always remember though, when you say something offensive, you are free to do so, but you also have to deal with the consequences. In this case it's a simple forum flare up, but in life it can be much more severe. (I'm being serious, not trying to be all weird or anything. I'm a mom, and I mom people...sorry. Hell you might even be older than me, but I'll still mom you anyways hehe) Just keep that in the back of your mind when you are about to insult a large group of people next time. Just because you CAN say it, doesn't mean you should. Alternatively... It just sucks to be rude. I don't like rude people. There's no reason for it. My god I'm tired. Is it bedtime yet?
I like cake. *dances*


Edit: Bruce said it so much more eloquently than I did Oh well, better luck to me next time!

It's got nothing to do with being rude, you're acting like one of those religious maniacs that takes offense to the slightest comment made against their beliefs. If you believe what you're doing is correct, why does it bother you what i think? I certainly couldn't care less what people thought of my set ups lol.

Would you also take offense to the fact I don't feel the need to keep any non venomous snake and never have, because i don't find them attractive to look at?

It's all opinions at the end of the day, and i wouldn't ever be offended by someones opinion.

You have nothing against tubs, you just think that anyone who uses them lack passion for their reptiles and shouldn't really have them...

Um no...I've used tubs for young snakes, that grow at a fast rate. There is nothing wrong with a tub, what's stopping you from making a tub naturalistic? Nothing.

For venomous animals, I absolutely understand the want and need to replicate the natural environment. I think you have done a great job and I applaud your efforts.

However, not all snakes are the same. Ball pythons in particular are just not the most active of snakes. If I thought keeping them in a naturalistic enclosure would increase their quality of life by a large margin, I would be keeping them in naturalistic tanks.

Here is where it comes down to personal opinion. In my personal opinion, a plastic tub creates the same environment that I would be creating in a naturalistic viv. The only difference is the size and material. The snake doesn't give two poops about what the humid, warm, and cozy environment is made of. It just cares that it feels safe.

To say someone cares less about their animals because they don't enjoy cleaning dirt, leaves, plants, numerous hides, and all the other goodies that go into a naturalistic viv is just not okay by my standards. I enjoy taking care of my animals. Even cleaning up huge poops. I'd rather not go digging through a 6' enclosure looking for said poops though.

It's about what you can handle as a keeper. If you can't handle to maintain 20 naturalistic enclosures, you probably shouldn't have them. But if you can handle 20 simple setups, then by all means go for gold.

There is nothing wrong with either setup. One does not make you any less passionate than the other as long as the animals are healthy.

You will not be able to change the minds of the majority based on your experience with a few hots. I'd just like for you to understand that no one here lacks passion, otherwise there would be no one here! No one is asking you to change your ways, therefor you should do us the same courtesy.

I don't know why people keep trying to say that venomous snakes are different to non venomous, in the sense that you can understand wanting a natural enclosure for them...Why? It's not any different.

The example you give of Royals not being the most active snake and therefore doesn't warrant a natural set up is redundant. Gaboons are the laziest snakes you will ever find, but i don't just stick them on newspaper.

[Kaorte]

So, your only problem is newspaper? Is that really it?

As long as I keep them on corrugated paper or paper towels you think that is perfectly fine?

I'm curious as to why you have such a huge problem with newspaper.


My understanding of venomous needing a more natural enclosure is that they generally camouflage with their environment to catch their prey. Not that they need it in order to catch their prey, but they perhaps sense that they blend in with their environment which makes them feel safer.

Does that make sense?

I really don't know a whole lot about hots since I don't keep them.

[reptileexperts]

Oh really now? Do you understand the word evolved?

e·volve 1. a. To develop or achieve gradually: evolve a style of one's own.
b. To work (something) out; devise: "the schemes he evolved to line his purse" (S.J. Perelman).

2. Biology To develop (a characteristic) by evolutionary processes.
3. To give off; emit.

Tell me how these ball pythons you have, have done any of what the definition of the word suggests? Maybe they've developed reading glasses to read the newspaper!!

The ability to thrive on a given substrate is a process that has occured through this process and is a charactoristic of these snakes. This, even in your looked up definition, defines an evolution process. And if you want to pull out and compare, let me get the 4 degrees off my wall and fax them right over. . . You're becoming very defensive for "not being against tubs". You have made your point, but its obviously anti-flow, and that's fine people can think how they want as long as their not mistreating these animals. If you want to house your snakes in a naturalistic cage, that's fine, but don't insult or be little those who do not want to provide the same asthetic appeal as you apparently have. Many of the people here house more than 10+ snakes. It is possible to do this with "glass tanks" of any sorts, but not the best option in a cost vs benefit. Is there any true issues with keeping snakes in tubs? None that I have ever witnessed. Are there issues with keeping snakes in naturalistic cages, nope not if you're willing to keep it clean. Because while you rant on and on about the natural world. You need to remember that most snakes do not live in the same place that they deficate in. They are quite clean animals. Spot cleaning a naturalistic cage is not enough since liquird waste can not always be removed in this fashion. Through this urates will rise to harmful levels and eventually cause your snake to become ill. However, think how you want, this is not a form of thought police. But this is a place for a wealth of information.