OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system

[Mike41793]

It's an Exo Terra, do your research before you say it's an aquarium.

So i assume you have made a rodent burrow in your tub? I don't have any objection to the use of tubs.

Ok fair enough. Its still made of glass though lol.

The tub IS the "rodent burrow".

I dont have any objections to how you keep your snakes either. As long as both of our snakes are thriving, who cares how we keep them?

My beef with you is I DO have an objection to you saying people who use non-naturalistic setups arent passionate. Youre entitled to that opinion, but im telling you that youre very mistaken.

[Crotalids]

Ok fair enough. Its still made of glass though lol.

The tub IS the "rodent burrow".

I dont have any objections to how you keep your snakes either. As long as both of our snakes are thriving, who cares how we keep them?

My beef with you is I DO have an objection to you saying people who use non-naturalistic setups arent passionate. Youre entitled to that opinion, but im telling you that youre very mistaken.

Well we will have to agree to disagree.

[Mike41793]

Well we will have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough.

[RoseyReps]

Nothing about captivity is natural, granted. But does that mean just because one aspect of keeping isn't, you just disregard the rest and make everything completely unnatural? Size is also another thing, a lot of the time racks are used so people can cram in as many snakes as they can. Which is wrong again, when my Gaboon Vipers are older maybe 6ft, they will be going into 10ft Viv's - not because i'm a millionaire but because i want to provide the best enclosure i can. I would rather have less snakes, and all kept in big vivs where they can exhibit their natural behaviors rather than more snakes and cramp them in racks which aren't even the length of the snake.

You seem to be under the impression that a snake will only feed/breed if it is happy and healthy...That isn't correct, it is survival. It is programmed into animals to survive and keep the species going. There are many reptiles that aren't feeding consistently, and are ridden with disease yet they will breed.

It's got nothing to do with what i keep my snakes in, you could keep yours in a cardboard box for all i care. But it's the way in which so many keepers are satisfied with providing just the bare minimum. This is my opinion, and nothing for you to be offended by, this is what i don't understand about so many reptile keepers you all get worked up so easily.

We have a voice and an opinion for a reason, to voice it.

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Oh really now? Do you understand the word evolved?

e·volve 1. a. To develop or achieve gradually: evolve a style of one's own.
b. To work (something) out; devise: "the schemes he evolved to line his purse" (S.J. Perelman).

2. Biology To develop (a characteristic) by evolutionary processes.
3. To give off; emit.

Tell me how these ball pythons you have, have done any of what the definition of the word suggests? Maybe they've developed reading glasses to read the newspaper!!

Voicing your opinion is great, and more than welcomed. But you are not *just* voicing your opinion. You are voicing your opinion while putting down a huge majority of people who DO have a passion for their reptiles. You are on ball-pythons.net, not gaboons.net, hots.net, cobras.net or anything else. You are voicing your opinion in the BP Husbandry section, of the ball-pythons.net forum. So please, stop comparing your hots, to our bps. They are not the same, and should not be kept the same. Ball pythons do NOT thrive in large enclosures, in fact, there are quite a lot of them who will go off feed entirely in large enclosures. (This is more so for younger ones, but is not unheard of for adults).

I'm well aware of the fact that animals do not need to be healthy and happy to breed, which is why I specifically did not say "Breed". I said feeding, active, and disease free. Not one word about breeding. You put that in, because you assumed that is where I was going. Negative.

If you want to tell people that you think aspen, or cypress is better than newspaper or paper towels, and give your reasoning why (IE: humidity, burrowing/comforting, etc) it will be warmly welcomed. You don't have to flip everyone off at the same time.

You don't understand why so many of us reptile keepers get upset when someone stands on their soap box saying "Anyone who doesn't do what I do is not passionate. People who use rack systems have dollar signs for eyes" and you are surprised people are getting upset and defensive?

And yes, I know you didn't say anyone who doesn't do what you do is wrong, but the insinuation was pretty darn close. Also, exaggeration is super fun

[Valentine Pirate]

I'm not touching that discussion.

To the OP: It's hard for non herp keepers to stop themselves from anthropomorphizing animals when they're so used to doing it with more common mammalian pets. Telling them that the snakes aren't "happy" "sad" etc as much as they are comfortable, threatened, or hungry can be quite the task. Tubs are easy to make an ideal environment for ball pythons because humidity stays higher, gradients can be met without having to deal with basking bulbs and whatnot, and the ease of disinfecting prevents a lot of headache/heartache/vet bills. Snake in safe environment with requirements met = healthy pet, while your friends are looking at it as "OMG if -I- were locked in a tub with nothing to do I'd get bored/unhappy/angry" (not verbatim obviously). It takes some understanding to look at herps objectively as creatures with specific requirements, and they don't necessarily have to cater to you. Can this be done with a glass tank? Yes. Plastic reptile specific enclosure? Also yes. But tubs meet requirements without significant modification or spending $150+ on a reptile specific cage. Species other than ball pythons may not be suited to the tub/rack method, and that's alright. If you were/are keeping herps other than BPs, I'm sure you've already realized they have their own needs (Back to the old mantra "Research research research." My friends think I'm nuts for all the reading and information pursuit I do). I've got tubs, tanks, and a couple acrylic cages all around the house, but it's always the tubs I have to explain to newcomers

[Freakie_frog]

After all these snakes have evolved to live in those specific habitats, so we as keepers should try to replicate that as closely as possible. Not just see money signs in our eyes, and keep everything to a minimum.

Ok I'll bite. Please list the environmental requirements for a Ball python and why it is Superior to the current hobby standard..

[RoseyReps]

To add to my last post:

Bps in racks is replicating what they are accustomed to in the wild. Small, tight, dark hole. Those are the bullet points the snake looks for when choosing a rodents den. Tight, dark, warm. They don't choose which one has a better floor, "oh..well this one has sticks, but that one over there..it has dead grass...oh and this one has dirt! Ho hum...I guess I'll go with the dead grass...no..too itchy, ok, dirt!..." No, the reptilian brain is much more, well, reptilian.
Tight? Check.
Dark? Check.
Warm? Check.
*happy snake face*
*sleeps*

How are we to know which flooring the bps prefer? We can't, and we never will. Who's to say they don't prefer the newspaper? It's smoother than au'natural, non-abrasive on their tummies...Maybe they do like to read, we'll never know.

So, back to our situation. What is a tub, with newspaper substrate (I don't personally like newspaper, the ink etc. I prefer cypress or aspen, but we'll use the evils of newspaper for this) consist of?
Tight? Check.
Dark? Check.
Warm? Check.

Added bonus - some keepers use hides, MORE TIGHTNESS & DARKNESS WOOT! (That was from the bp's mouth, just being silly, sorry.)
Added bonus - constant fresh water
Added bonus - rats come to MEEEEEEE
Added bonus - no other snakes tryin'a take my house. (sorry, bp went all gangster there for a sec)

Bare minimum for a living ball python, well you can see that all day long on craigslist. 20L aquarium, screen top, heat light, half log hide, repti-carpet/paper/aspen/pine*cringe*/whatever-is-on-sale-at-wal-mart.
Racks are far from bare minimum.


Oye...I need to sleep...

[barbie.dragon]

We really cannot argue this because what is "better" for the snake is subjective. If it works for you and you sleep well at night it's sufficient, and if you're bothered by how you keep your snakes then change it. (I am not referring to anyone specific by saying 'you'. I'm just referring to all people in general.)

[Crotalids]

Voicing your opinion is great, and more than welcomed. But you are not *just* voicing your opinion. You are voicing your opinion while putting down a huge majority of people who DO have a passion for their reptiles. You are on ball-pythons.net, not gaboons.net, hots.net, cobras.net or anything else. You are voicing your opinion in the BP Husbandry section, of the ball-pythons.net forum. So please, stop comparing your hots, to our bps. They are not the same, and should not be kept the same. Ball pythons do NOT thrive in large enclosures, in fact, there are quite a lot of them who will go off feed entirely in large enclosures. (This is more so for younger ones, but is not unheard of for adults).

I'm well aware of the fact that animals do not need to be healthy and happy to breed, which is why I specifically did not say "Breed". I said feeding, active, and disease free. Not one word about breeding. You put that in, because you assumed that is where I was going. Negative.

If you want to tell people that you think aspen, or cypress is better than newspaper or paper towels, and give your reasoning why (IE: humidity, burrowing/comforting, etc) it will be warmly welcomed. You don't have to flip everyone off at the same time.

You don't understand why so many of us reptile keepers get upset when someone stands on their soap box saying "Anyone who doesn't do what I do is not passionate. People who use rack systems have dollar signs for eyes" and you are surprised people are getting upset and defensive?

And yes, I know you didn't say anyone who doesn't do what you do is wrong, but the insinuation was pretty darn close. Also, exaggeration is super fun

No snake in the world likes large open spaces. It's no wonder people find their snakes going off their feed, when they're given empty cages and a water bowl. I've already stated, that should the set up be correct with enough hiding places so that the snake feels secure there is no reason why a snake shouldn't feed.

I do understand, but how do you think it shows any passion when people keep their snakes in a viv/tub with newspaper and a bowl of water and that's it? It's like saying you're passionate about cooking, but all you can cook is toast. I am passionate about my snakes, so i try to give them an enclosure that is similar to where they would be living in the wild. My Gaboon are burrowing snakes, so they're given a substrate where they can burrow.

I'm not touching that discussion.

To the OP: It's hard for non herp keepers to stop themselves from anthropomorphizing animals when they're so used to doing it with more common mammalian pets. Telling them that the snakes aren't "happy" "sad" etc as much as they are comfortable, threatened, or hungry can be quite the task. Tubs are easy to make an ideal environment for ball pythons because humidity stays higher, gradients can be met without having to deal with basking bulbs and whatnot, and the ease of disinfecting prevents a lot of headache/heartache/vet bills. Snake in safe environment with requirements met = healthy pet, while your friends are looking at it as "OMG if -I- were locked in a tub with nothing to do I'd get bored/unhappy/angry" (not verbatim obviously). It takes some understanding to look at herps objectively as creatures with specific requirements, and they don't necessarily have to cater to you. Can this be done with a glass tank? Yes. Plastic reptile specific enclosure? Also yes. But tubs meet requirements without significant modification or spending $150+ on a reptile specific cage. Species other than ball pythons may not be suited to the tub/rack method, and that's alright. If you were/are keeping herps other than BPs, I'm sure you've already realized they have their own needs (Back to the old mantra "Research research research." My friends think I'm nuts for all the reading and information pursuit I do). I've got tubs, tanks, and a couple acrylic cages all around the house, but it's always the tubs I have to explain to newcomers

I have nothing against tubs i have already said that...

Ok I'll bite. Please list the environmental requirements for a Ball python and why it is Superior to the current hobby standard..

How about something like these? I'm sure you will find these peoples snakes are far more active than ones kept in a basic set up. Snakes may not be the smartest animals in the world, but you think a vivarium/tub that is more intricate doesn't provide them with greater mental stimulation?




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To add to my last post:

Bps in racks is replicating what they are accustomed to in the wild. Small, tight, dark hole. Those are the bullet points the snake looks for when choosing a rodents den. Tight, dark, warm. They don't choose which one has a better floor, "oh..well this one has sticks, but that one over there..it has dead grass...oh and this one has dirt! Ho hum...I guess I'll go with the dead grass...no..too itchy, ok, dirt!..." No, the reptilian brain is much more, well, reptilian.
Tight? Check.
Dark? Check.
Warm? Check.
*happy snake face*
*sleeps*

How are we to know which flooring the bps prefer? We can't, and we never will. Who's to say they don't prefer the newspaper? It's smoother than au'natural, non-abrasive on their tummies...Maybe they do like to read, we'll never know.

So, back to our situation. What is a tub, with newspaper substrate (I don't personally like newspaper, the ink etc. I prefer cypress or aspen, but we'll use the evils of newspaper for this) consist of?
Tight? Check.
Dark? Check.
Warm? Check.

Added bonus - some keepers use hides, MORE TIGHTNESS & DARKNESS WOOT! (That was from the bp's mouth, just being silly, sorry.)
Added bonus - constant fresh water
Added bonus - rats come to MEEEEEEE
Added bonus - no other snakes tryin'a take my house. (sorry, bp went all gangster there for a sec)

Bare minimum for a living ball python, well you can see that all day long on craigslist. 20L aquarium, screen top, heat light, half log hide, repti-carpet/paper/aspen/pine*cringe*/whatever-is-on-sale-at-wal-mart.
Racks are far from bare minimum.


Oye...I need to sleep...

And if they want to come out of this small dark hole? How about actually providing a small dark hole inside a Viv/Tub so they can go in and out when they feel the need to.

[Gene Collins]

If you want to tell people that you think aspen, or cypress is better than newspaper or paper towels, and give your reasoning why (IE: humidity, burrowing/comforting, etc) it will be warmly welcomed. You don't have to flip everyone off at the same time.

You don't understand why so many of us reptile keepers get upset when someone stands on their soap box saying "Anyone who doesn't do what I do is not passionate. People who use rack systems have dollar signs for eyes" and you are surprised people are getting upset and defensive?

This is pretty much how I felt with those condescending responses as well. I am new to BPs and I only kept my BP in a tank for a few weeks before I swapped to the tubs based on my research and loads of recommendations on here. I did not swap them to tubs because I am not passionate about them or don't care for them. I check their temps and humidity multiple times per day. I check for excrements and change their water daily to ensure the cleanest and healthiest environment possible. I choose not to use newspaper but I do not look down on anyone who does.