The Official Birth Defect Documentary *Graphic picture warning*

[TJ_Burton]

I have first hand experience with what can happen when breeding for super cinnamons and it was covered by The Reptile Report: http://thereptilereport.com/super-ci...eason-why-not/



You can get variations in head/skull deformities including duckbills, mishaped heads, cleft jaws etc.
You can get severe and minor kinking of the spine etc.
You can get eye issues (usually stemming from skull deformity)

Of 5 supers produced in an 8 egg clutch, only 1 came out flawless. 2 were culled due to extreme deformity, and 2 were given away to friends as pets due to being completely unbreedable, but in survivable shape.

Super black pastels and black pastel cinnamons have also run into the same complications according to other breeders, although it hasn't been well documented and the frequency of these complications isn't known.

Taken from my post on reptilescanada.com

It is important to mention:
- Incubation was at the standard 88-89.F
- Parents are unrelated, from different lines originating from seperate breeders
- There was a minor humidity issue that was resolved early on during incubation
- This was my first attempt at Super Cinnamons

Well,

Unfortunately it looks like I may only have (at most) 1 super cinnamon of the 5 that will be in good enough condition to sell or trade. Two were culled almost immediately following their attempt at exiting the egg (pictures below) and two more are not in the best condition. I have a nice looking paradox with a minor spinal kink, another with an eye that is bulged, and only one seems to be in good condition (although it is still partially in the egg, so that may not be the case). The two Cinnamon and single Normal offspring look absolutely healthy. Incubation was at 89.9F and despite a slight humidity issue that was corrected, completely normal.

Suffice it to say, this has been a heartbreaking season for me. This clutch was my most anticipated, and unfortunately, I was relying on this clutch to financially support further expansion through trades/sales etc. Kind of feels like being held back a grade, knowing that I won't be where I hoped to for next season. Live and learn!

That being said I wanted to let everyone know the very real possibility of defects/deformations that comes along with breeding super cinnamons - I will tell you now that this is the last Cinnamon to Cinnamon pairing I will EVER attempt. If you wondered why there aren't more super cinnamons out there, this is more than likely the answer.

TJ

[MisterKyte]

I kind of have to disagree with pithing as a good method for euthanizing a defective BP at home because after being in a physiology class where we had use this technique to cull specimens, it largely seemed ineffective because the vast majority of my peers were either unable to do it, or worse, did it incorrectly and ended up putting the frogs through so much more pain than was unnecessary. Like, I hope this doesn't seem out of line because I'm sure that there are other people who have actually had to put down BPs in this manner and have much more experience with breed snakes than I but after participating in that class, I have to assert that most people do not have the finesse or gut to properly pith a living animal. Not to say, freezing isn't a delightful manner in which to die either but there's much less room for mistake there and it doesn't require as active a role as pithing. I may be wrong but I think the dry ice and cooler method in DIY forum would probably much more effective and arguably more humane to cull a BP.

[satomi325]

I kind of have to disagree with pithing as a good method for euthanizing a defective BP at home because after being in a physiology class where we had use this technique to cull specimens, it largely seemed ineffective because the vast majority of my peers were either unable to do it, or worse, did it incorrectly and ended up putting the frogs through so much more pain than was unnecessary. Like, I hope this doesn't seem out of line because I'm sure that there are other people who have actually had to put down BPs in this manner and have much more experience with breed snakes than I but after participating in that class, I have to assert that most people do not have the finesse or gut to properly pith a living animal. Not to say, freezing isn't a delightful manner in which to die either but there's much less room for mistake there and it doesn't require as active a role as pithing. I may be wrong but I think the dry ice and cooler method in DIY forum would probably much more effective and arguably more humane to cull a BP.

While CO2 and cervical dislocation works great for rodents, it doesn't for reptiles.

Co2 is not a good way to euthanize reptiles. Since they have a slow respiratory rate and metabolism, it would take a very long long time for them to die. Quite agonizing really. Some may not even die because the person doesn't leave them in the Co2 chamber long enough. It takes a mouse roughly 2 minutes to die in a Co2 chamber. I can guarantee it won't take 2 minutes for a snake to die. Overall, not a very effective or efficient method.

Cutting off the head is inhumane because the head is still alive and can feel pain.

Freezing is one of the most inhumane methods to euthanize a snake or any thing for the matter. Freezing is highly painful. It can take hours for a snake to freeze to death. Because they are cold blooded, reptiles do not loose consciousness like mammals do when freezing. Its said they can feel their cells freeze and burst. Putting a hand in ice water for 30 seconds hurts us already. I can't imagine doing that for hours.....

Pithing takes a little more skill, so it can be done incorrectly like you said. But I don't suppose most people are using that specific technique anyway.
The only humane method for snakes you can do at home is instantaneous brain destruction(Crushing or destroying brain tissue ).
And while it is not pretty, smashing, crushing, or chopping the head itself is the most effective way to euthanize a snake yourself.

If you take a snake to the vet, they will euthanize it with either an overdose of anesthesia or a cardiac puncture to the heart if a vein cannot be located in smaller animals. Don't worry about pain. The snakes are put under anesthesia during the heart puncture procedure. It's illegal to not do so.


And in regards to not having enough guts. I can't speak for everyone, but I can tell you how I feel about it.
If there was ever a situation where an animal had to be down on the spot, I wouldn't even hesitate. As a keeper, it is my responsibility to take care of my animals to the best of my ability and make sure they're not suffering. It would be unfair to them if they couldn't live a quality life just because I wanted them to live longer. Sometimes there are situations where you have to euthanize on the spot. Sometimes a suffering animal cannot wait 20+ minutes to drive to the vet to be put down. While it's not a great feeling or experience to euthanize animals, I would suck it up to help my animals.

[bcr229]

Not mine, but another report: http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...rt-season.html

[kitedemon]

I agree pithing is not easy. It is effective if done correctly. I also suggest that C02 not being a good way and freezing a reptile a very poor choice. I feel that if a person is breeding snakes (anything actually) they should be prepared for this possibility. It is a real chance and is likely to occur sooner or later. It is part of the responsibility of breeding if a person cannot bring them selves they should not be breeding at all.

I think it is different for a pet owner it is not as likely to expect an emergency euthanasia to happen and they can be excused if the choice is die from server trauma over days or a freezer over hours, freezer wins. The first choice is clear, pithing or vet but a pet owner didn't exactly sign up for pithing. A breeder does.

[kitedemon]

Some have heard me speak of my girl Lucy. She is deformed. I do not believe there was an incubation issue but she is a twin (two snakes one egg). It is believed this is the cause of her issues.

The list.
One eye (myself and my vet feel the lump on the top of her head is what remains of the other eye it just moved sideways and was formed out of position, this is a guess)

Exceptionally short or fused tongue ( you can see her tongue move by looking at her throat area however you never see it out of her mouth. This causes her to froth her saliva in her mouth and me grief she looks like she is starting RI, the cultures however come back negative not ri just saliva)

Intestines not completely formed, (X-ray and U/S confirmed) trouble with bloating and gas.

She has poor aim I feel this is not so much related to the loss of the eye but the loss of tongue. I have seen other blind snakes feed perfectly I believe Gale has said this about her Athena on other occasions no striking issues. lucy has lots she misses frequently. She has the poorest aim of all my snakes and also never changes attitude until you bop her in the nose with the rat then she goes into feeding mode. I don't think she can smell well at all. I suspect this is a bigger issue than the eye.

On the up side she is super healthy and eats every time and well. She is also the friendliest snake I have ever met in person.

Hosted on Fotki

[Raven01]

I think NERD has a couple videos on lethal gene combo's. I'll have to re-watch those and see if any of the implicated genes show up more than others with defects.

[Centexsnakes]

Great great thread, as I plan on breeding at some point, really good info!

[OctagonGecko729]

Not mine, but another report: http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...rt-season.html

Was this lethality the cause of crossing mutations or just random? It wasn't clear to me exactly what this guy paired up.

[PhoenixGate]

While CO2 and cervical dislocation works great for rodents, it doesn't for reptiles.

Co2 is not a good way to euthanize reptiles. Since they have a slow respiratory rate and metabolism, it would take a very long long time for them to die. Quite agonizing really. Some may not even die because the person doesn't leave them in the Co2 chamber long enough. It takes a mouse roughly 2 minutes to die in a Co2 chamber. I can guarantee it won't take 2 minutes for a snake to die. Overall, not a very effective or efficient method.

Cutting off the head is inhumane because the head is still alive and can feel pain.

Freezing is one of the most inhumane methods to euthanize a snake or any thing for the matter. Freezing is highly painful. It can take hours for a snake to freeze to death. Because they are cold blooded, reptiles do not loose consciousness like mammals do when freezing. Its said they can feel their cells freeze and burst. Putting a hand in ice water for 30 seconds hurts us already. I can't imagine doing that for hours.....

Pithing takes a little more skill, so it can be done incorrectly like you said. But I don't suppose most people are using that specific technique anyway.
The only humane method for snakes you can do at home is instantaneous brain destruction(Crushing or destroying brain tissue ).
And while it is not pretty, smashing, crushing, or chopping the head itself is the most effective way to euthanize a snake yourself.

If you take a snake to the vet, they will euthanize it with either an overdose of anesthesia or a cardiac puncture to the heart if a vein cannot be located in smaller animals. Don't worry about pain. The snakes are put under anesthesia during the heart puncture procedure. It's illegal to not do so.


And in regards to not having enough guts. I can't speak for everyone, but I can tell you how I feel about it.
If there was ever a situation where an animal had to be down on the spot, I wouldn't even hesitate. As a keeper, it is my responsibility to take care of my animals to the best of my ability and make sure they're not suffering. It would be unfair to them if they couldn't live a quality life just because I wanted them to live longer. Sometimes there are situations where you have to euthanize on the spot. Sometimes a suffering animal cannot wait 20+ minutes to drive to the vet to be put down. While it's not a great feeling or experience to euthanize animals, I would suck it up to help my animals.

I'm glad I read through this thread before I ever attempted to breed ball pythons. I was aware that euthanasia was a problem, because I knew of problems like kinking and lethal gene combos, but I thought putting a snake in the freezer was a human way to euthanasia them. I'll have to look at getting a pithing kit when I'm ready to breed. Would any method of destroying the brain work? Such as, if you don't have a pithing kit available, would a nail gun to the brain work? I would think not, since driving a nail through the brain would only destroy a small portion and death would not be guaranteed. Satomi, how do you euthanize your snakes? I agree that waiting to go down to the vet is not always the most humane thing to do, especially with baby snakes that are so deformed they are probably in pain the longer they are alive.

I think NERD has a couple videos on lethal gene combo's. I'll have to re-watch those and see if any of the implicated genes show up more than others with defects.

Some of the lethal gene combos I know off the top of my head are; champagne crossed with any morph that causes neurological issues such as spider (and I've heard woma can cause wobbling as well) and woma x woma breeding, which is to say that any BP with two woma genes will not live for very long if at all.