This isnt abuse is it?

[Capray]

As long as the rats are healthy, I don't think you could get in any trouble. This also is unfair seeing as they sell gazzilions of kinds of rat poison and traps.... kind of ironic.

[Riv]

Whew, i had my first three litters! I had 23 pups, all b
Agouti hooded except for one hooded blue and one hooded albino!

I wound up removing the door of my closet, and making a very simplostic rodent rack with 3 shelves. 1 male 3 females in two shelves and a nursery bin if the mother seems unhappy with the others.

Im still feeding aplo, but im back on aspen and am incredibly happy with the results. I change bedding about once a week, and theure never too terribly noisy. Im moving into a bigger bedroom in a few days, and then the rack wo t have to stay in the closet anymore too, so vedy soon housing thecolony will be no issue at all = P

[Don]

I know you are not going to like reading this and I hope you do not see this as an attack. If you can not afford the proper food and you can not afford proper bedding, why are you buying more rats or raising rats at all? I think a better option is to switch your snakes over to F/T and give up the rats.

If you can not afford to feed f/t, then maybe you can not afford to keep snakes yet. It may be a good idea to wait until your finances and living conditions are in a little better shape before spending disposable income on this hobby.

[Riv]

I understand why you think that, but the fact of the matter is I can in fact afford to buy both proper food and bedding.

The fact remains my food choice takes a long time to negatively impact said rodents, and they will not live long enough to see the negative side effects. So if there is no difference in health whatsoever why would I intentionally pay more than necessary? It just doesnt make sense. And yes, the price is nice. But that does not and will not undermine my point.

As far as being able to afford bedding everyone on this site will go the less expensive option when they can. I attempted to use the cheapest option and with the advice of other users determined it was more worth it to provide the more expensive substrate that I am currently using.

Believe me I wouldnt be in this hobby if I could very literally not afford to provide my animals with the necessary means to live. I dont see your statement as a personal attack, but I cant help but think that the statement is arrogant, presumptious, and borderline ignorant. I re-read through the entire thread before responding to this, and have come to the conclusion that nowhere did I ever say or insinuate that I would not do what was necessary to make this work, and successfully provide positive conditions for every single animal I bring into my home. Ideal scenario, or not.

[Sita]

The fact remains my food choice takes a long time to negatively impact said rodents, and they will not live long enough to see the negative side effects.

Like I posted previously, if the dog food you're feeding contains Red Dye 40, it is building up in their systems from day one, and the toxins are being passed on to your snakes.

Even though there aren't specific studies with that dye and pet snakes, there's been plenty of studies involving other toxins being ingested by prey and being found in and affecting the predator that eats them.

You're risking the health of your SNAKES by feeding dog food, not just the rodents.

[Riv]

Like I posted previously, if the dog food you're feeding contains Red Dye 40, it is building up in their systems from day one, and the toxins are being passed on to your snakes.

Even though there aren't specific studies with that dye and pet snakes, there's been plenty of studies involving other toxins being ingested by prey and being found in and affecting the predator that eats them.

You're risking the health of your SNAKES by feeding dog food, not just the rodents.

You Literally Just wrote in the same post that there are no specific studies with that specific dye and pet snakes. Meaning that until something has been proven there is no reason to stop. Yes, there is a distinct possibility that the food MIGHT be builiding some sort of toxin that could impact my snake. And in the exact same way, the cell phone in your pocket MIGHT be giving you cancer as we speak. It will not stop you from carrying that cell phone in your pocket until definitive research has proven the theory.

If you would really like to, we can derail this thread and make this a debate about whether feeding dog food or rat block is the ethical thing to do for both prey and predator, but its been hashed out a thousand times before and not a single person has won yet.

[Sita]

Quote Originally Posted by Sita
Like I posted previously, if the dog food you're feeding contains Red Dye 40, it is building up in their systems from day one, and the toxins are being passed on to your snakes.

Even though there aren't specific studies with that dye and pet snakes, there's been plenty of studies involving other toxins being ingested by prey and being found in and affecting the predator that eats them.

You're risking the health of your SNAKES by feeding dog food, not just the rodents.

You Literally Just wrote in the same post that there are no specific studies with that specific dye and pet snakes. Meaning that until something has been proven there is no reason to stop. Yes, there is a distinct possibility that the food MIGHT be builiding some sort of toxin that could impact my snake. And in the exact same way, the cell phone in your pocket MIGHT be giving you cancer as we speak. It will not stop you from carrying that cell phone in your pocket until definitive research has proven the theory.

If you would really like to, we can derail this thread and make this a debate about whether feeding dog food or rat block is the ethical thing to do for both prey and predator, but its been hashed out a thousand times before and not a single person has won yet.

Show me a study that shows that when a toxin is ingested by a prey animal that AFFECTS the animal, and this prey animal is the majority of what the predator eats, that the predator is completely unaffected.

Mercury, DDT, toxic phytoplankton, pesticides, rodenticides...all these and more have been proven to affect the prey AND the predator that feeds on them. If you want to risk the life and health of your snakes by feeding them toxin-laced rodents, then go ahead. For me, the science is there to show that more than likely, not "possibly" or "might", feeding our snakes an animal that has been ingesting a KNOWN poison is going to affect the health of the snake.

[Riv]

Dyes are not a chemical and not a definite toxin. Feeding actual poisons to an animal like the ones mentioned in the above post will affect the animal eating said prey. But dyes may be an exception to that rule. People have been feeding dog food to rats for a long time and many have never seen any difference. Without scienctific research into the matter there is no way to tell for sure. People string together symptoms of other medical issues with unreasonable causes all the time. The people that are convinced that dog food effected their snakes health could have had a harmful bacteria in the air or contaminated water that made their snakes ill.

My point is that yes in other cirucmstances certain things were proven to effect the predator. Dyes have not been confirmed to be in that group. As far as im concerned the percentage that it could effect them is 50%. That means that there is an equal chance that it DOES NOT effect the snake. So while YOU may choose to er on the side of cuation and not feed rats dog food, you cannot condemn anyone else for not sharing your opinion, and feeding their rats as they please.

The truth of the matter is that we do not know, and unless someone like you backs an organization that will test for a few years to find out, we probably wont. So on that note, im not going to tell you that your irrational and potentially unfounded fear is absolutely ridiculous, and you wont tell me im killing my snakes.


Now, back on a thread related and positive note, My rats are doing great = D Im expecting my 4th 5th and 6th litter any day now, and it appears I lucked out with mostly very responsible mothers. My hairless isnt mothering quite so well, but thats to be expected. I fostered her babies to another female who just had her own, and she accepted them without issue.


Even better news, Im making enough money now that I'm renting out two rooms! Im taking a larger bedroom, and my current one is being devoted soley to my rats and ferret. as well as storage space for my snake supplies. I didnt think it would be a great idea to keep my snakes in the same room as my rats XD figure theyd get hungry and try to escape. Im pretty pumped though. Now ive got more than enough space, dont have to smell or hear them first hand, and none of my room mates will be bothered. Couldnt have worked out better.

[Sita]

Dyes are not a chemical and not a definite toxin. Feeding actual poisons to an animal like the ones mentioned in the above post will affect the animal eating said prey. But dyes may be an exception to that rule. People have been feeding dog food to rats for a long time and many have never seen any difference. Without scienctific research into the matter there is no way to tell for sure.

You obviously didn't even look at the studies I linked to. Most dyes used today ARE a chemical that is created in a lab. The studies I posted are SCIENTIFIC studies that have determined the toxicity of many food dyes, including Red 40, which is commonly found in dog food, along with many other dyes that those studies have ALSO proven to be toxins.

Some of the studies on that page not only examine the toxicity of dyes on rats and mice, but also on people.

http://www.feingold.org/Research/dye-studies.html

I'm basing my "irrational and potentially unfounded fear" and "opinion" on FACTS.

[RobNJ]

Dyes have not been confirmed to be in that group. As far as im concerned the percentage that it could effect them is 50%. That means that there is an equal chance that it DOES NOT effect the snake.

Since I don't know the real numbers I'll be taking your "statistics" into account...if you are fine with investing potentially thousands of dollars in snakes to breed that are going to over time require thousands of hours of your time and thousands of more dollars just to maintain, and are fine with the 1 in 2 chance that your feeders, in the long run, may affect their health, have at it.