Pedigree's ?

[QuidsBalls]

I was wondering what everyone thinks about Pedigree's?

I ask mostly because my girlfriend, who breeds Show Rabbits (Mini Rex, Dutch), asked me if Pedigree's are used in the BP World, and I answered that they might be, but I wasn't sure and I would find out for her.

Now, in the Show Rabbit world, pedigree's are VERY important, you don't buy a show rabbit off someone that doesn't have a Pedigree. This is because of the way that rabbit genetics work, as well as other reasons.
There are many times that a buyer will only pay for half of a rabbit if the pedigree is not readily available, the other half of the rabbit is paid for after the pedigree has been received.

I assume in the BP World, Pedigree's are not used, and in some ways they are not needed, however I think they could come in handy, especially when dealing with BP's that have 5 and 6 Morph, including recessive or Het, we all know that the possibilities and combinations are endless.

I understand that there are over 80,000 Registered Animals on iHerp, of which only a % of them are Ball Pythons, and of those Ball Pythons, again only a % of them are in the linage.

Anyone out here in the Ball Python world make Pedigree's for their Ball Pythons?
What information do you include in the pedigree you make up for them?
How far back do you go in your lines? Grandparents? Great Grandparents?
Do you know of any programs (such as Evans for Rabbit Pedigree's) that make Pedigree's?

In making a pedigree for snakes, it would differ from Rabbits, as in the Rabbit world, you would specify what "Variety" the rabbit is (Tort, Black, Blue Etc.) whereas with Ball Pythons we would have to include the Morphs that the BP Carries (which may be multiple)
Another problem would be that we may have to manipulate a pedigree in the future, if a BP is considered 50%+ Possible Het, and is later proven.

A bit of a long post, I tried to search for Pedigree's on the forum and all I could see was iHerp, which seems useful, however (In my opinion) is not used enough in the BP world, I don't believe any Pedigree's are used in the BP world, which would make it hard to START creating Pedigree's.

Also, some people may be against this as it will show people exactly what they would need to produce or reproduce some very complex and expensive Combo's that are available today.

Anyways, thanks for reading and thanks for the replies

[The Serpent Merchant]

Many breeders will offer genetic gaurentees on snakes (espicially recessive genes) for me all that matters is what the parents are. Pictures of the parents are also very good to have.

I use a program called FileMaker Pro. It allows me to track my animals (set up similar to iHerp (which I also use). I can set up a breeding project that includes a synopsis of the parents records (averages of feeding, weight, shedding info, and bathroom records) and genetics with a link to the parents page.

[1nstinct]

I agree with aaron bps do not really follow a pedigree. But some other species do, my GTP has a pedigree, it traces back to my GTP's grandfather and grandmother that were breed by Greg maxwell. So I know what his grandparents and parents both look like.
Tom

[Royal Hijinx]

I often ask for pice of the parents in my multi-gene animals to see the stock that they come from. Multiple genes could mask a so-so parent (crappy Pastel in a Pewter for example). When going for quality, I think the ingredients are important.

There have been paperwork threads before, and it seems to be split down the middle. I personally will send paperwork, like you described, for each of my offspring once I start breeding. It is very easy to draft up a form and insert pics of the parents and the hatchling and hit print. Now with that said, I do not have thousands of animals, so I would have the time.

[QuidsBalls]

Yeah I get that it would be a lot of work for someone who owns hundreds/thousands of BP's.
I figure making each pedigree from scratch would take up to 30 minutes, but if you started with your Oldest BP's and made your way down your own line, you would start cutting down the time of each Pedigree, to the point where making a pedigree for a Juvenile from a recent clutch would only take less than 5 minutes, 2 if you knew what you were doing.
I figure if you own hundreds/thousands of BP's, you should have a good idea of who is related to who, etc.

However, once the initial collection has been Pedigree'd, it wouldn't be hard to write up Pedigree's for the Clutches.
With some programs that are available for other animals, such as Rabbits, it's as simple as dragging the pedigree of the Mother and Father onto one page, a picture of the juvenile could be taken and that would be the end of your pedigree, update the picture when you think the snake has reached it's full size and you're done.

Pedigree's would also help greatly with reducing inbreeding and line breeding.
If all BP's had a Pedigree going back to their great grandparents, people could, if they so chose, reduce the amount of inbreeding and line breeding in their lines.

[mojavereptiles]

I could not find a pedigree program.. I can understand the use of pedigrees, as I used them for dogs and for horses... So I ended up making my own system...

http://mojavereptiles.com/snake-pedigree is my little "search" engine to search my pedigrees

http://mojavereptiles.com/snake-pedi...e_id=1005-ball is an example of one of my snakes' pedigree.. shows the parents of the snake, and her siblings (snakes who share one or another parent snake)

This butter is a girl I am raising and she's over 700 grams right now... once she has her own babies, then those babies will have a pedigree that shows her and their sire, and then her parents (the baby's grandparents).

However, I had to make this myself... not sure what others are doing

[JohnNJ]

Pedigree's would also help greatly with reducing inbreeding and line breeding.
If all BP's had a Pedigree going back to their great grandparents, people could, if they so chose, reduce the amount of inbreeding and line breeding in their lines.

All of the breeders I know, myself included, are working towards a specific goal, whether it's dogs, horses, rats or snakes. All are either inbreeding or line breeding. You learn quickly that an outcross may cause issues that could take generations to correct.

[Slim]

A ball python pedigree is only as good as the word of the person who's giving it to you. I deal with breeders that I trust, so I don't require a piece of paper.

[reptileexperts]

I personally like to have a good 2 generations track record for any of my snakes that have multiple genes, and images of grandparents is definitely a plus. I can't expect that for every snake I get, but I can expect that when I deal with a reputable seller. Nick Mutton will trace your snake from him back to wild origin or German Origin depending on the specific species / morph. It's far more common in the Green Tree Pythons for a pedigree to exist because of the amount of farm raised animals on the market, and the fact that long term captive US bred animals fetch a much steeper price, we're talking $200 for a farm captive bred imported snake, versus starting points around $800 for a US captive bred, and $1200+ for a long term US line with grandparent information!

And as far as pedigrees and linebreeding go, a LOT of our clean morphs out there, like banana in kings, came from successful line breeding projects that came from years of work. Without these efforts, we would not have nearly as clean of morphs as we have available, and unfortunately, without inbreeding, some new recessive mutations may not be able to continue without breeding back your HET offspring.

Cheers,

[Don]

Also, normal pedigrees have unique names and registration numbers to trace the lines. I second Slim, deal with trusted people and you don't need paperwork. I have several hets that have no paper, but I have no doubt about their genes.