Crap!! Even shipping IN state will end up crossing state lines!!

[Kyle7676]

You may or may not be correct about the first part of your post; whether or not you are responsible for what Fedex does with your package once you give it to them. We will find out more about this when Robyn@SYR gets back to us.
To the next part, your logic is very far off base. You DO NOT have to know about a law to be breaking it! So even if someone has a single pet burm and has to move to another state, but has never heard of the addition of burms to The Lacey Act they will still be breaking the law and held responsible for it if they are caught.
The stupid/irresponsible comment is fairly easy to understand. Making a comment that since you won't be responsible for Fedex transporting a Lacey Act animal across state lines it's not that big of a deal for you as the shipper. It is a huge deal, Fedex is one of the last ways for us to be able to ship our animals across the country and if they decided to stop shipping snakes or reptiles because of something like this it would destroy OUR amazing hobby!
As for the last part I completely agree with Maixx and Foshi. We as a community need to stand together in this. Whether you have a single corn snake or 100's of BPs, Boas, Burmeses and Retics. People need to stop thinking that it won't effect them and not caring. And start supporting all other pet owners.

Slow down hoss ... I NEVER said ignorance of the law was a defense. I think you need to go back and reread everything that has been said, specifically the parts where people actually brought knowledge of the law from forum posts up. Better yet, before you question someone's logic, make sure you actually understand what it is you have read.

As far as the stupid / irresponsible comment ( I still have no clue what specific thing i said you are talking about but whatever ) - do you TRULY believe that FedEx hasnt been aware of this since this legislation was introduced ? LMAO - what do you think is going to happen exactly ? They arent going to find out about this addition to the Lacey Act til a month or 2 down the road when someone tries to ship a burm and then blow up and say no to all reptiles ? You cant be serious ....

FedEx is a huge company. They will make the decision based on what is best for their bottom $$ not because someone tried to sell a burm from FL to FL through their system. Google " shipping wine through FedEx ". Dont you think they know all the little tricks ? Yet people still do it. And they still allow it. If shipping reptiles is going to be too much of a hassle for them right now, they will stop. If they think they can make it work, they wont stop. Its that simple.

Believing that a forum has anything to do with it is just

[Kyle7676]

I agree, I shouldn't have said media in the general. But this is the kind of event that opponents of the herp community use in their propaganda to support the anti-snake laws that they are trying to push. As we have seen with many other negative events or accidents that their spin doctors have used to exaggerate, they might turn one person breaking this law into a "black market" scenario trying to make us all look bad.

Yes. Im sure that a spin doctor could put this wild and crazy spin on someone shipping a snake from Orlando FL to Jacksonville FL as a black market situation because FedEx's van drove outside the state line for a few hours. Absolutely... I can see MSNBC, CNBC, FOX, and all the rest gearing up to have HSUS and PETA reps lined up for this breaking story...

I know some people hate the media and thats fine. But my god, I dont care HOW bad you THINK they are, this is not a story even for them.

[rabernet]

...is there some anti ball python law im not familiar with ?!? Now im skurred

If you didn't care enough to make a loud noise about the big constrictors - who's going to make a loud noise for your ball pythons?

Yes, HSUS and PETA are trying to ball ALL exotics, not just the big constrictors. It started with the big constrictors, and anyone who sits back and feels like they have nothing to worry about is about to have a rude awakening.

This battle has only JUST begun. They got their big constrictors, now they'll be coming after the smaller reptiles - bet on it.

[rabernet]

THIS is why I have zero worries about this trickling down to all snakes like several of you on here believe it will.

Keep on ostriching.....

[Jabberwocky Dragons]

Threads on a forum do not constitute knowledge. The fact still remains that you are mailing a package to be delivered intrastate. You are not willfully breaking a law. It will boil down to 2 problems. FedEx and others will simply stop accepting snakes for delivery or you run the risk of the package being inspected and the snakes being confiscated. Even if the package is inspected and the snakes are confiscated, personally I wouldnt worry about legal problems, just being out money or snakes.

Slow down hoss ... I NEVER said ignorance of the law was a defense. I think you need to go back and reread everything that has been said, specifically the parts where people actually brought knowledge of the law from forum posts up. Better yet, before you question someone's logic, make sure you actually understand what it is you have read.

As far as the stupid / irresponsible comment ( I still have no clue what specific thing i said you are talking about but whatever ) - do you TRULY believe that FedEx hasnt been aware of this since this legislation was introduced ? LMAO - what do you think is going to happen exactly ? They arent going to find out about this addition to the Lacey Act til a month or 2 down the road when someone tries to ship a burm and then blow up and say no to all reptiles ? You cant be serious ....

FedEx is a huge company. They will make the decision based on what is best for their bottom $$ not because someone tried to sell a burm from FL to FL through their system. Google " shipping wine through FedEx ". Dont you think they know all the little tricks ? Yet people still do it. And they still allow it. If shipping reptiles is going to be too much of a hassle for them right now, they will stop. If they think they can make it work, they wont stop. Its that simple.

Believing that a forum has anything to do with it is just

No problem! I went back and reread and there it is, second post. It used to be that there had to be intent present to commit a crime. The government realized they could prosecute many, many more people by stripping out the intent requirement and did so. Try depositing 10,000k cash into your bank account without documentation. Just because you didn't "willfully break the law" won't stop you from becoming a felon.

There is no defense in a case against the government. This isn't a logic or philosophy college course. The gov't could care less what your excuse...logic... reason is. If a snake belonging to you goes across state lines, they can prosecute you. Doesn't matter if you try to pin it on Fed Ex.

I suspect Fed Ex won't even know for 100% until a case goes to court. I also seriously doubt that Fed Ex allows people to illegally ship wine as you suggest to make an extra couple bucks off shipping. It's an absurd notion they turn a blind eye to it.

[Kyle7676]

No problem! I went back and reread and there it is, second post. It used to be that there had to be intent present to commit a crime. The government realized they could prosecute many, many more people by stripping out the intent requirement and did so. Try depositing 10,000k cash into your bank account without documentation. Just because you didn't "willfully break the law" won't stop you from becoming a felon.

There is no defense in a case against the government. This isn't a logic or philosophy college course. The gov't could care less what your excuse...logic... reason is. If a snake belonging to you goes across state lines, they can prosecute you. Doesn't matter if you try to pin it on Fed Ex.

I suspect Fed Ex won't even know for 100% until a case goes to court. I also seriously doubt that Fed Ex allows people to illegally ship wine as you suggest to make an extra couple bucks off shipping. It's an absurd notion they turn a blind eye to it.

It was late and I can see how the word willfully was misconstrued. Like I said before though, you apparently were not keeping up with the entire thread.

I was certainly not saying that this was a case of ignorance to the law. Let me break this down for you again since you obviously still dont get it.

It was brought up that from here on out, if you shipped a burm or such through FedEx, intrastate, that BECAUSE YOU READ THIS FORUM, that you would now have knowledge of FedEx taking your package outside of the state line. Because of this, you would be guilty.

I was simply pointing out that if you are shipping a snake INTRASTATE. From one address in a state to another IN THE SAME STATE, you are NOT breaking a law. Just because you read that FedEx MAY OR MAY NOT actually step over a state line with your package still does not constitute any legal wrong doing on your part.

" If a snake belonging to you goes across state lines, they can prosecute you. Doesn't matter if you try to pin it on Fed Ex. "

Now, stay with me here... Say you ship a burm from Dallas Tx to Marshal Tx ( Marshal is close to the Louisiana border ) using a local shipping service who doesnt have a processing center outside of the state. So no reason for it not to go straight down I-20 to its destination. Now, say the driver of that van decides he wants to make a pit stop to a little place he likes to go for lunch right on the other side of the border of Louisiana. So he does. With your snake in the back. Did you just commit a felony ? Of course not ! So my question is this... what is the difference between this and using FedEx ? The fact that they may or may not take your package outside the state ? How would you know they are though ? This isnt an issue of not having knowledge of the law, its an issue of not knowing what FedEx's shipping practices are. They are choosing to take packages outside of the state they are being shipped in. Not you.

Im still not convinced that FedEx takes every package to processing centers outside of state lines.

Oh, and WTF are you talking about ? It is FAR from a felony or illegal for that matter to deposit 10k into a bank account without documentation.

Of course FedEx doesnt ALLOW people to illegally ship wine. But when someone comes in and is shipping tons of bottles of " olive oil " from a local winery, is it on FedEx to open the box and make sure it is olive oil ? Of course not because they could care less. In that situation, the shipper is breaking the law. Not FedEx. They would not be held responsible.

[zach_24_90]

[QUOTE=Kyle7676;1792121]
Of course FedEx doesnt ALLOW people to illegally ship wine. But when someone comes in and is shipping tons of bottles of " olive oil " from a local winery, is it on FedEx to open the box and make sure it is olive oil ? Of course not because they could care less. [QUOTE]

haha exactly... i was listening to a vendor (who shall remain nameless) and he was talking about how he has and will be shipping out some funky looking cornsnakes here lately lol

[zeion97]

..... We do nothing but argue between ourselves.. just Because we don't agree on a few base issues doesn't mean we need to spend our free tine arguing over stuff like this....

I guess this conversation is a little different then the other ones we've seen, but in the end it still blows my mind.. we're not going to get anywhere alone, only together.

[rabernet]

[QUOTE=zach_24_90;1792127][QUOTE=Kyle7676;1792121]
Of course FedEx doesnt ALLOW people to illegally ship wine. But when someone comes in and is shipping tons of bottles of " olive oil " from a local winery, is it on FedEx to open the box and make sure it is olive oil ? Of course not because they could care less.

haha exactly... i was listening to a vendor (who shall remain nameless) and he was talking about how he has and will be shipping out some funky looking cornsnakes here lately lol

Shame on him.

[zach_24_90]

Shame on him.

i say he is jsut trying to keep his business going... i say shame on the laws for taking that right away from him. and trust me you ALLL know the person im talking about. its not a small breeder. this is a LARGE mainstream top tier breeder