People make my head hurt...

[Don]

Kinra, the best way to fight this is to have a large group show up in person. Dress professional and explain the issue in a logical and reasonable manner. With this kind of ban, you can reach out to lots of groups because it hits just about anyone with an animal other than a cat or a dog. Best of luck!

[Slim]

Wild by nature, huh? I hope the citizens of Dane County are ready to give up their cats, gerbils, parkeets, and gold fish.

I have to say that this suprises me a little bit coming out of Wisconsin. My kids live outside of Appleton and I spend quite a bit of time up there. Wisconsinites have always struck me as being very proud of their personal liberties. They should be able to see that an attack on anyone's personal rights is an attack on everyone's freedom.

Good luck in your fight! Keep the flags flying!

*Edit* I would hate to see this madness go all the way to court, but I can't believe the lawyers for Dane County think they can defend this wording. A first year law student could tear this thing to shreads in 5 minutes.

[Kinra]

Kinra, the best way to fight this is to have a large group show up in person. Dress professional and explain the issue in a logical and reasonable manner. With this kind of ban, you can reach out to lots of groups because it hits just about anyone with an animal other than a cat or a dog. Best of luck!

Most of the active members from my local herp society (hopefully) will be showing up in person to any meeting they have about this. We've been trying to reach out to a lot of groups. We are fortunate enough to have some well connected people in our society. We have someone reaching out to various rescues, local pet stores and vets who are willing to add their voice and someone who is in close contact with PIJAC has said they will support us. We have the potential to get a lot of people to show up, the question is will they. :/

Wild by nature, huh? I hope the citizens of Dane County are ready to give up their cats, gerbils, parkeets, and gold fish.

I have to say that this suprises me a little bit coming out of Wisconsin. My kids live outside of Appleton and I spend quite a bit of time up there. Wisconsinites have always struck me as being very proud of their personal liberties. They should be able to see that an attack on anyone's personal rights is an attack on everyone's freedom.

Good luck in your fight! Keep the flags flying!

*Edit* I would hate to see this madness go all the way to court, but I can't believe the lawyers for Dane County think they can defend this wording. A first year law student could tear this thing to shreads in 5 minutes.

The wording of it is so vague it's scary. I have received a reply to one of the e-mails I sent out. It's a classic standard response, but we did send out letters that were pretty much the same so I guess that is only fair.

As one of the co-sponsors of the ordinance amendment in question, I believe that you have legitimate concerns. Our plan was to allow for uniform regulation throughout Dane County. However, the proposal as introduced did not follow the City ordinance as closely as I had intended.

I am working with the public health department, the counties legal folks and a fellow supervisor to draft an amendment that will address your thoughtful concerns.

Please know that intent was to mirror the current ordinance that is currently covering the City of Madison and not to affect responsible pet owners in the county.

I greatly appreciate your thoughts and hope that your concerns are addressed in the amendment that is in drafting.


Melissa Sargent
Dane County Supervisor
District 18

If they want to follow the City of Madison's Ordinances then I won't be affect, but I will still be there to support those that will be affected. I really do understand why they want to ban lions and tigers and bear (oh my!), but reptiles don't make much sense. They aren't a public safety risk like people want to make them out to be. I will admit if I learned my neighbor was keeping a collection of venomous snakes I would be worried since I live in an apartment complex and it could easily get into mine, but that's a little different.

[ER12]

If they want to follow the City of Madison's Ordinances then I won't be affect, but I will still be there to support those that will be affected. I really do understand why they want to ban lions and tigers and bear (oh my!), but reptiles don't make much sense. They aren't a public safety risk like people want to make them out to be. I will admit if I learned my neighbor was keeping a collection of venomous snakes I would be worried since I live in an apartment complex and it could easily get into mine, but that's a little different.

I have submitted MAHS draft regulations on certain reptiles, which were the same ones we proposed to the City of Middleton. It is being considered...

[zeion97]

Most of the active members from my local herp society (hopefully) will be showing up in person to any meeting they have about this. We've been trying to reach out to a lot of groups. We are fortunate enough to have some well connected people in our society. We have someone reaching out to various rescues, local pet stores and vets who are willing to add their voice and someone who is in close contact with PIJAC has said they will support us. We have the potential to get a lot of people to show up, the question is will they. :/



The wording of it is so vague it's scary. I have received a reply to one of the e-mails I sent out. It's a classic standard response, but we did send out letters that were pretty much the same so I guess that is only fair.



If they want to follow the City of Madison's Ordinances then I won't be affect, but I will still be there to support those that will be affected. I really do understand why they want to ban lions and tigers and bear (oh my!), but reptiles don't make much sense. They aren't a public safety risk like people want to make them out to be. I will admit if I learned my neighbor was keeping a collection of venomous snakes I would be worried since I live in an apartment complex and it could easily get into mine, but that's a little different.

....no its not. You're saying a 20 foot female Burmese isn't @ danger? How is it more or less of a danger then a lion... wegher you like it or not.. we CAN NOT continue to throw large mammal owners and hot owners under the bus.. whether you like them or not we're all in the same.

I you're not, I still stand by what I said, but I apologize to you. I know your intentions are noble, but to look at a BP owner and say you can not own this animal is to look at a RTB owner PR a Burmese owner and say the same... they're all exotic person which we WANT to own... all pets have risk of death, even cats and dogs. It shouldn't be up to our government to decide which pet we may die by if We own...

[Kinra]

....no its not. You're saying a 20 foot female Burmese isn't @ danger? How is it more or less of a danger then a lion... wegher you like it or not.. we CAN NOT continue to throw large mammal owners and hot owners under the bus.. whether you like them or not we're all in the same.

I you're not, I still stand by what I said, but I apologize to you. I know your intentions are noble, but to look at a BP owner and say you can not own this animal is to look at a RTB owner PR a Burmese owner and say the same... they're all exotic person which we WANT to own... all pets have risk of death, even cats and dogs. It shouldn't be up to our government to decide which pet we may die by if We own...

I'm sorry but I live in a 2 bedroom apartment that is directly connected to the other 24 apartments in my building via a communal hall way and stair way. I would NEVER say some can't own these, but a responsible owner should know that my apartment is NOT a responsible place to keep these. If my 4ft ball python gets out and leaves my apartment the worst that could happen is someone gets bit and bleeds a little, maybe it kills their pet rat. If I had a venomous snake in my apartment that got out it could easily kill someone therefore becoming a public safety risk. If a 20ft burm manages to escape from a cage and then get out of my apartment then my apartment complex has some serious structural issues it needs to fix. A two bedroom apartment is not the place for a lion either.

I never said I would throw them under the bus, in fact I said I would be at every meeting to support the right people have to own these. I highly support permitting systems and don't think apartment complexes are a good place for people to own hots or large mammals. They then because the public safety risk that we keep trying to claim they aren't. If you rent or own a house that is not directly connected to anyone else then I really don't care what you own and I will defend your right to own it (though I still don't think a city is the best place for a lion). We can't preach responsible ownership and then say that an apartment complex is a great place for hot owners or people with lions, they contradict each other.

[Jabberwocky Dragons]

Unfortunately, this is the problem. Most people don't see ball pythons any differently than they view tigers and lions and hots. Their goal is to ban ALL exotic animals. Once we, as a reptile community, start compromising on ownership of exotics then it becomes very easy for HSUS and their ilk to dismantle exotic ownership piece by piece.

There is an extremely good article by Colin Weaver available on his website that explains how this tactic was used to ban firearms in the UK and is now being employed on exotics here in the US. It is called "Let the UK Be a Lesson" and I highly recommend everyone reads it who hasn't.

I understand what you are saying and 100% agree that there is a difference between keeping a hot in a apartment and a ball python. Let me ask you though, what about a 22' annie or a 16' burmese? A red tail? Where is the line drawn? If it's drawn at burmese, they will push it for red-tails. Once it hits red-tails, ball pythons will be next.

An apartment complex can easily ban lions and hot snakes as part of their lease. So can home owners associations in suburban neighborhoods. There is no need for more government intrusion into private lives.

[Kinra]

Unfortunately, this is the problem. Most people don't see ball pythons any differently than they view tigers and lions and hots. Their goal is to ban ALL exotic animals. Once we, as a reptile community, start compromising on ownership of exotics then it becomes very easy for HSUS and their ilk to dismantle exotic ownership piece by piece.

There is an extremely good article by Colin Weaver available on his website that explains how this tactic was used to ban firearms in the UK and is now being employed on exotics here in the US. It is called "Let the UK Be a Lesson" and I highly recommend everyone reads it who hasn't.

I understand what you are saying and 100% agree that there is a difference between keeping a hot in a apartment and a ball python. Let me ask you though, what about a 22' annie or a 16' burmese? A red tail? Where is the line drawn? If it's drawn at burmese, they will push it for red-tails. Once it hits red-tails, ball pythons will be next.

An apartment complex can easily ban lions and hot snakes as part of their lease. So can home owners associations in suburban neighborhoods. There is no need for more government intrusion into private lives.

As I said, I support permitting systems. I don't think ANY animal should be banned, but I also don't think that everyone should be allowed to own a lion, burm, hot, etc... I would glad apply for a permit to keep all of my reptiles even my crested geckos and leopard geckos if that was what it took to make things seem even in the eyes of hot keepers.

Responsible owners should know that things like apartment complexes are not appropriate homes for some things so there should be no need for a super pet friend apartment like mine to have to go through and list animals that aren't allowed. I don't want to draw a line, but there is a clear line. If someone who knows nothing about venomous reptiles was bit by an escape hot and the owner could not be located/identified quickly then there is a good chance the person bit won't be able to accurately identify it for treatment, where as someone bit by a burm has a chance of survival even if they are being constricted (which to unlikely as an escaped burm is going probably going to strike defensively).

I'm not saying that the government should step in and ban these because I know there are thousands of keepers who do responsibly keep them. It's the irresponsible keepers that scare me and cause us so much trouble. I also know that bans and permits won't do anything to protect me if my neighbor decides they want to illegally (or even legally) keep a black mamba, but at least a permitting system would keep them from being banned out right and hurting the people who do responsibly keep them. Politicians ban these because it makes the public feel safer not because there is actually a reason to ban them.

Edit: I want to make it clear, that I ONLY view hots and lions as potential public safety issues when they are kept in close contact with people (such as in an apartment complex). An escaped hot or burm has no chance of survival if it escapes a home here in WI, especially during winter, which is why I don't view them as even potential safety risks outside of an apartment complex (or similar dwelling). An escape lion on the other hand would pose a public safety risk in a city, but I still support peoples right to own them.

[Jabberwocky Dragons]

I agree that there should be permitting system for such animals too as long as there is a stipulation that such permits are automatically granted unless specific cause can be found not too (or they never will be granted).

To return to your earlier posts about the people on Craigslist.... I have recently had to direct all live animal packages to my local hub for pickup instead of having them delivered. My fed ex delivery driver has told me that snakes should be illegal, no one needs to own them in their home, and it is absolutely dangerous if any children live there. I have no children yet but have no doubt that she would have called CPS if I did. There is absolutely no convincing someone like that and I am sorry that you are having to deal with similar ridiculousness in your community.