Morphs that are alike....

[frost0214]

Hi Folks, i just wanted to ask about some base morphs that are alike... since they seem very alike to me...

1. Cinnamon and Black Pastel
2. Butter and Lesser
3. Banana and Coral Glow
4. Pastel and Lemon Pastel

I know that some are slightly different but are they genetically different meaning would i get diffrent double morph when i breed one instead of the other? OR are they just really very minimal color and hue difference. Prices are different that is why i am asking.. thanks!!

[tonkatoyman]

WOW that list is a can of worms that has been debated for ever. Some people think that they are the same and some do not. The only one i can speak to is the lemon/jungle pastel issue. We have both jungle and (true N.E.R.D. line Lemon) pastels in our collection. They both are located on the same spot in the DNA strand so they are in that way similar and compatible. However they are different in that the jungle pastel is more about flames and blushing while the lemon pastel as it ages looks like you painted it with a yellow highlighter.
So yes it is the same gene but different in how it develops.

[ball python 22]

I was windering the same thing.

[Freakie_frog]

As to your question there are a few animals that look nothing alike but when bred together produce a "Super" and when bred to other morphs make different combo's.

Example Mojo and lesser. When bred together they produce a BEL, but when bred to a spider produce very different looking combo's, this also applies to Pastel and Mojo/Lesser so there are some animals with a different look but genetically the same. Then there are animals that are visually the same but genetically different like VPI and Jollif Axanthics.

[WingedWolfPsion]

The test is, what happens when you breed them together, and what happens when you breed the resulting offspring.

If you produce a Lesser/Mojave BEL, and breed it to a normal, you will get mojaves and lessers. You will not be confused as to which is which--the offspring will be, distinctively, either mojave or lesser, not some combination of the two. Thus, you know that mojave and lesser are two separate mutations on the same allele.

I'm not familiar with what happens if you breed a lesser/butter BEL to a normal, or what happens if you breed a black pastel/cinnamon super to a normal.

Pastel and lemon pastel, however ARE the same morph--they are not separate mutations. Lemon pastel is a line bred strain of pastel, selected for high yellow color with little blushing. If you breed a lemon pastel to a normal, what you get will not be as striking as the lemon pastel parent, and with continue outcrossing, what you produce won't be distinguishable from any other pastel. It will no longer be lemon pastel.

[tonkatoyman]

The test is, what happens when you breed them together, and what happens when you breed the resulting offspring.

If you produce a Lesser/Mojave BEL, and breed it to a normal, you will get mojaves and lessers. You will not be confused as to which is which--the offspring will be, distinctively, either mojave or lesser, not some combination of the two. Thus, you know that mojave and lesser are two separate mutations on the same allele.

I'm not familiar with what happens if you breed a lesser/butter BEL to a normal, or what happens if you breed a black pastel/cinnamon super to a normal.

Pastel and lemon pastel, however ARE the same morph--they are not separate mutations. Lemon pastel is a line bred strain of pastel, selected for high yellow color with little blushing. If you breed a lemon pastel to a normal, what you get will not be as striking as the lemon pastel parent, and with continue outcrossing, what you produce won't be distinguishable from any other pastel. It will no longer be lemon pastel.

As with any other mutation there are good and bad examples of Lemons. But breeding the parent to a normal does not automatically mean the babies will be less lemon than the parent. As with any other mutation careful breeding will preserve the look from generation to generation while bad breeding can destroy the look.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

With the caveat that I only own cinnamons and not black pastels -- I was under the impression that these two are pretty widely considered to be a slightly different morph on the same allele (more like lessers versus mojaves than lessers versus butters). I had "heard" that super black pastels tend to be blacker than super cinnamons, and their combos (black pewter, etc.) tend to be somewhat distinct looking from cinnamon combos.

That said, I also haven't heard if the offspring of a black x cinnamon can be distinguished from one another ... I would be curious as I agree that that is, to a degree, the "ultimate" test. AFAIK, the offspring of a "butter" x "lesser" pairing are indistinguishable -- they become a "blend" in appearance of both parents.

... Maybe if I can find a black pastel female that lives up to my standards (haven't yet ), I can give it a whack in the future