Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

[Egapal]

egapal, i was agreeing with you on most of the things, and trying to debate on the others. You're acting really argumentative and i think taking what i'm saying the wrong way.


BTW what is your definition of domesticated? I copy/pasted the actual definition, so please do, let's see what you come up with. That is why i said you can't argue with it...it IS a fact because that is what the word means. *rolls eyes*

Like I said you clearly don't understand the words you copy and pasted. You did not provide any evidence that BP became accustomed to human provisions and control through selection. 15 or 20 years is not enough time for the generations necessary for any level of domestication without massive selection the likes of which I have never even heard of with BP's. I am argumentative if you define that as disagreeing with you.

you also said previously that ball pythons were naturally docile. then you just said that they aren't and went on a fussy paragraph to me about how they have, and have never been chosen from the wild because they are docile. *lol* you are really going at it.

I never said they aren't docile. Their natural defense mechanism in the wild is to curl up in a ball. That's not something we domesticated them to do. They do that in the wild. I am not sure what you didn't understand.

ALso, in this thread people have said they throw rats or mice in the cages or tubs, and walk away for hours. I don't know why you're defending the site as if i'm attacking it and saying it doesn't happen. I'm just saying i know i won't get people to not feed live, but they can at least watch to make sure the snakes are okay.

I am defending this site because you seam to be attacking feeding live with everything you have said. You say you know you won't get people to change but you seam to be suggesting that they should. Feeding live is not the problem. Not watching is a problem and its something that this forum has been very clear about. I agree they should watch when feeding live but its not a case of "at least." There is nothing wrong with feeding live if done correctly.

also, you can freeze and unfreeze a steak all you want. has nothing to do with the fact that ball pythons will eat dead animals in the wild. has nothing to do with the fact that freezing does kill a lot of bacteria, so that even though the frozen/thawd mouse might stink, and be decaying, it can still be processed by the snake's body. True that wild snakes can and will and may get sick from eating dead animals. But they DO eat them. i don't know why you said i was trying to convince you otherwise or whatever it was you said you couldn't be convinced of. I actually clearly said that though i didn't like it, you should feed your snake what it will eat *shrug*

You again totally missed the point. I can be convinced by good evidence backed arguments. What the animal does in the wild is not a good basis for an argument. Now if you could address the actual point I made. Would you eat a steak that you thawed left out for a few hours, froze, thawed left out for a few hours, froze and then thawed again? I would not and I will not feed a likewise treated rodent to my snakes.

THe single only thing i have been trying to convince anyone of was that they should watch their snakes when there is live prey in the bin with them so that they don't get hurt, because they CAN get hurt.
Other than that, i had my question as to WHY people feed live, answered. People worry about cost, and they find it easier to feed live.
Since finding that out, all i said was that i find it cheaper to feed thawed.
In response, someone else said THEY found it more expensive to throw out uneaten food...to which i said, i have not found it more expensive. That i had only thrown out food a few times. That i DO refreeze, and my snakes are and do NOT get sick.

If all you got from this thread was that people feed live because its easier and they worry about cost then you have missed some really good points. Your point about watching live feedings is taken. Its also one that has been made in nearly every post concerning feeding live on this forum. As for your snakes. The fact that they do NOT get sick is not even close to the only thing that needs to be considered when making decisions on husbandry.

Not only can that be proven by the fact that my snakes just aren't sick, but freezing DOES kill bacteria that would make them sick. Fact.

I don't mean to be rude but you do not understand how to prove things. You are presenting a correlation that does not prove causation. Live rodents have virtually no chance of getting sick from bacteria from live prey. They do have a chance of picking up parasites that freezing does kill. If parasites were the only thing to consider we would all feed f/t. Unfortunately like I said there is more to consider.

If the food item does start to stink, and break down, that bacteria is NOT bad for the snake.
And, snakes in the wild DO consume rotten or rotting food. Yes those snakes do get sick. There are also other parasites and bacteria working on the wild rotted food item.
ANyway, i was bringing up the "in the wild" thing because....it's just a fact i am using to show you that eating dead food in captivity is not just a captive thing, it is also practiced in the wild. FACT.

I don't know any other way to say this. Just because something happens in the wild does not mean its good for the snake. You have to prove that its good for the snake. I won't drink milk past the sell by date. It won't make me sick I just have enough money to not bother risking it. I can also afford fresh rodents.

WHew...lastly i posted the pics of the snakes, because i was pointing out what happens when you leave snakes unattended with live food items. I did not at all say that feeding live caused dehydration or starvation. Please reread if you think i did. I clearly was just saying what had happened along WITH a poor live feed, for these two snakes.

I thought you were cool, man.

I am cool man. I am sure we would get along great if we met. I understand why you posted the pics. My point is that we have all seen these pics. We don't feed live because we just never thought about it. Its dishonest of you to put a picture of a BP nearly gutted by a rabbit in a thread where you are trying to make the point that feeding F/T is safer. It's simply not relevant in that it was hurt by a rabbit. Nearly no one would consider feeding a rabbit to their BP and if they did it would be a baby not capable of the damage you showed. By posing that picture you are saying that we are putting our snakes at that kind of risk without actually saying the words. That's just dishonest. The picture of the dehydrated starved snake is equally not relevant. Its an emotional plea. I thought you were cool too. That's why I gave you an honest detailed response. That's why I have taken the time to respond to each of the points you have made. Are you trying to say that disagreeing with you makes me not cool or is in the passion with which I speak?

[Egapal]

True. I still think there are many examples of domestication, that come from a few generations of adaptation to the dependence on humans for survival, as stated by the definition of domestication.

With so many generations of snakes out there, and for as many years as they have been being bred, it cannot be a 100% true statement to say that there are not some domesticated bps. That's my point.

Ok so in this last post of yours you are arguing with someone who is being trained in animal biology toward becoming a vet. Do you have any training, education, or research into what domestication is? Simply reading the wiki definition is not going to cut it here. You don't appear to have the background biology studies to be making the kind of arguments you are making. The point you keep missing is that it doesn't matter how many generations of animal are bread in captivity. The relevant issue is whether or not there has been a selective breeding in order to make them easier to keep in captivity that has resulted in a change in the animal from its wild counterparts. This is not the case with BPs. We have selected the ball pythons that get to breed based on colors and there has been little to no change in the captive animals behavior vs the wild. This is further proven by the constant influx of wild BPs to the trade. Even if there has been some change it doesn't prove your point. The changes have to be fairly drastic, bordering on or flat out leading to speciation.

[Missy King]

egapal, you said "I don't know any other way to say this. Just because something happens in the wild does not mean its good for the snake. You have to prove that its good for the snake. I won't drink milk past the sell by date. It won't make me sick I just have enough money to not bother risking it. I can also afford fresh rodents."

I didn't say i couldn't afford fresh rodents. I said that fresh vs f/t seems to be a problem for people due to cost. I also said i found it cheaper *shrug*

I think eating is good for the snake. I do disagree with your argumentation method.

I don't know why you wouldn't drink milk past the SELL date, if it is still good. If it's expired, it's not necessarily bad. If it GOES bad throw it it...humans also do not have the ability to fight off bacteria from "bad" food...where as ball pythons can eat food that has been dead for a long time, not refrigerated, and by our standards, spoiled. That is just a fact.


You wrote "Ok so in this last post of yours you are arguing with someone who is being trained in animal biology toward becoming a vet. Do you have any training, education, or research into what domestication is? Simply reading the wiki definition is not going to cut it here. You don't appear to have the background biology studies to be making the kind of arguments you are making. The point you keep missing is that it doesn't matter how many generations of animal are bread in captivity. The relevant issue is whether or not there has been a selective breeding in order to make them easier to keep in captivity that has resulted in a change in the animal from its wild counterparts. This is not the case with BPs. We have selected the ball pythons that get to breed based on colors and there has been little to no change in the captive animals behavior vs the wild. This is further proven by the constant influx of wild BPs to the trade. Even if there has been some change it doesn't prove your point. The changes have to be fairly drastic, bordering on or flat out leading to speciation."

You have no idea if i have studied biology extensively and have 14 degrees, or if i'm a 13 year old kid posing as...whatever *lol* You don't know that about the person i was responding to, either.
And, i was specifically discussing the definition of the word domesticated, and it's application.

And it DOES matter how many generations of animal are bred in captivity...uhm...that is kind of the point. how many does it take to become domesticated...to show signs of domestication, etc. You and satomi are saying it takes too many, to have shown up already..AND that bps are NOT being selected for personality traits, that they are ONLY being selected for color. I am saying that i can PROVE otherwise, since I have two snakes from a breeder who has bred normals for 20 years, and i have two normals who are each from that breeder, who has stated that they were selected for their easy going personality and easy acceptance to captivity. I don't see how this is an argument at all *lol* I am clearly stating a fact. You can of course, choose to disagree, but since you cannot prove it, you cannot disprove it. You can concede to calling it a theory, that there are some bps out there that were selected for their "domesticated traits".
I really think if you take a second to read, and reread this last paragraph...you will see what i am saying, and understand it.

Anyone who has studied science, not even biology specifically cannot disagree with this statement. There are questions/problems just like it on the SATs.
I will concede that I have perhaps not been as clear in my previous statements, to help you understand exactly what i'm saying. I think we agree on some things, but are not seeing it that way due to the nature of our discussion...ie: on a text forum.

For instance...

You said my point about watching the snakes during a live feed was taken. Great! But then you go on to say

" I understand why you posted the pics. My point is that we have all seen these pics. We don't feed live because we just never thought about it. Its dishonest of you to put a picture of a BP nearly gutted by a rabbit in a thread where you are trying to make the point that feeding F/T is safer. It's simply not relevant in that it was hurt by a rabbit. Nearly no one would consider feeding a rabbit to their BP and if they did it would be a baby not capable of the damage you showed. By posing that picture you are saying that we are putting our snakes at that kind of risk without actually saying the words. That's just dishonest. The picture of the dehydrated starved snake is equally not relevant. Its an emotional plea. "


So, you say you understand. Then you for some reason go on to claim I am being dishonest in some way. That's simply not true. I closed the talk about why to feed live, quite a few posts ago. I said i had gathered reasons why people do it.
Then I posted, yes, an emotional plea, that if people are going to feed live, to watch their snakes. I don't see how this is dishonest. Please explain to me in detail how it is.
It is 100% honest. It is also, you are right, 100% emotional. BTW this thread is NOT about trying to get people to feed f/t over live. I have made that clear many times. lol

I simply asked why people do it...i wanted factual reasons.
I learned the reasons.
After learning the reasons, I simply stated that I disagree with the many statements that people feed, and then walk away from their animals.

Blah, we are going around and around here. It's not really a healthy debate when we start repeating ourselves over and over.

[satomi325]

I see that you're set in your ways Missy

I fully agree with Egapal's last post.
Domestication is altering of behavior from the wild counterpart. And by behavior, I don't mean looking for a water bowl. A wild snake can return to the same stream for water too. I mean an instinctual change from the natural primitive form. A survival instinct. Snakes are truly instinctive creatures, and never really lose this trait even after years in captivity. However, you can't really say that about other domestic animals. They loose many traits, both physically and behavior wise, from their wild ancestors.

Is there a difference between wild cattle and dairy cows? Yes. They look and act different.
Is there a difference between a wolf and a bull dog? Yes. They look and act different.
Is there a difference between CBB BP and wild BP? No. They look the same and act the same, which is why many people can't tell the difference between a wild caught/bred and captive born/bred. I can't tell you how many Ghana balls Ben Siegel has, but they're up for auction weekly. So far to date, I haven't seen anybody say their Ghanas act any different from cbb bps.


Sure, some breeders may say they're breeding for personality, but the majority of ball pythons have a naturally docile disposition... Even wild caught ones. So I guess we can say almost everybody is breeding for personality?? But realistically, most people get into BP breeding for their paint jobs. And breeding a calm dog doesn't mean the puppies will be calm either...You can meet a friendly wolf w/ friendly pups. That doesn't mean they're domesticated. They're still very wild and can survive and act as they do in nature.

Here's a pretty clear example:
I think you said you have a few BPs that will not strike at certain food because it's moving???(Or something along the lines)... Well, not all animals are survivors. Natural selection. Survival of the fittest. But that's only 2(?) out of the BP population. The vast majority will most likely survive if you leave them in Africa. So as a species, they're going to survive in the wild without human aide. You take a population of golden retrievers and leave them to fend for themselves, the majority are going to die because they don't know how to survive due to the alteration from their wild forms. As a species, they're probably not going to survive.... (they would have to revert to de-evolution back into the primitive form otherwise)

Some people say domestication is a form of evolution. The domestic form is derived from the wild form. The difference between cbb and wild BP isn't significant enough to be truly independent of each other. That is why snakes are not domesticated.

If you truly believe that snakes are domesticated, then I suppose I can't really change your mind. But I'm just stating basic biological evolutionary theory.

[Homegrownscales]

Ok I'll just state this for myself and I'm pretty sure any other person that feeds live. We know the risks associated with feeding live. Not a single person throws rats in and leaves for hours upon hours or walks away and that's the end of it. Feeding large amounts of animals is a process. Anyone whom is feeding that many knows what they are doing. You don't get that many snakes with out knowing what you are doing. The grotesque pictures of bps being eaten alive by rodents that you see, is from a hungry dehydrated rat that in turn becomes the predator in a cage. That is from a day or more being left in a Cage or tub. No water no food. That doesn't happen in 20 min to an hour. Many people that feed large amounts of balls also prefer to feed smaller more frequent meals. I feed weanlings or just a tad bit larger than a weanling. This is a hell of alot different than feeding jumbo rats. Weanlings have no idea what going on yet. They are still clueless to the world. Yes when they are constricted they will try to bite that Is instinct. Being a smaller meal for a bp they don't last long. Prey doesn't last long in my bins on feeding day anyways. Many of us that do feed live in large amounts have sort of like a sensor in our brains. Yes we put the rat in, close the bin, move to the next. But as I'm on the next bin if I hear a squeal my "sensor" goes off and I open it real quick to make sure everything is good. If I need them, my hemostats are in my back pocket, I secure the rat, and i move back on. If I don't hear the squeal I know to check back on that bin, when I'm done putting rats in. I also do my feedings in groups. It's a 10 min process per group. Anyone whom hasn't eaten by then, doesn't. This by all means again, is a PROCESS. And perhaps if you knew what it was like to feed 10/30/40/100 balls you would understand. You asked for the reasons folks feed live. You got them. You didn't ask for our feeding practices.
This doesn't make people that feed live lazy at all. Having that many animals you have to Weigh your options. Am I going to spend 4 hours or more, feeding, heating up rats over and over with the hair dryer, doing the zombie dance? Or am I going to spend an hour feeding bc i have to spend the other three hours cleaning bins. Or spraying bins, filling water bowls. Etc.
What choice would you make if you had 60 hungry snakes, worked a full time job, had to keep everyone clean, etc? Would you still go for the zombie dance? Even if it cut in to bin cleaning time, or job time, kids time etc... Or does it seem like a different situation then?
I guess what I'm saying with all of this is everyone has their reasons for feeding how and what they do. A bit
More comes into play than just being lazy or not lazy when you have a large collection. But I know for a fact that 99.9% of folks on this site that do feed live know what precautions to take. As I said before BOTH live and ft have their risks. Not either one is safer than the other if the person is uneducated about the risks associated with each.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

[satomi325]

Ok I'll just state this for myself and I'm pretty sure any other person that feeds live. We know the risks associated with feeding live. Not a single person throws rats in and leaves for hours upon hours or walks away and that's the end of it. Feeding large amounts of animals is a process. Anyone whom is feeding that many knows what they are doing. You don't get that many snakes with out knowing what you are doing. The grotesque pictures of bps being eaten alive by rodents that you see, is from a hungry dehydrated rat that in turn becomes the predator in a cage. That is from a day or more being left in a Cage or tub. No water no food. That doesn't happen in 20 min to an hour. Many people that feed large amounts of balls also prefer to feed smaller more frequent meals. I feed weanlings or just a tad bit larger than a weanling. This is a hell of alot different than feeding jumbo rats. Weanlings have no idea what going on yet. They are still clueless to the world. Yes when they are constricted they will try to bite that Is instinct. Being a smaller meal for a bp they don't last long. Prey doesn't last long in my bins on feeding day anyways. Many of us that do feed live in large amounts have sort of like a sensor in our brains. Yes we put the rat in, close the bin, move to the next. But as I'm on the next bin if I hear a squeal my "sensor" goes off and I open it real quick to make sure everything is good. If I need them, my hemostats are in my back pocket, I secure the rat, and i move back on. If I don't hear the squeal I know to check back on that bin, when I'm done putting rats in. I also do my feedings in groups. It's a 10 min process per group. Anyone whom hasn't eaten by then, doesn't. This by all means again, is a PROCESS. And perhaps if you knew what it was like to feed 10/30/40/100 balls you would understand. You asked for the reasons folks feed live. You got them. You didn't ask for our feeding practices.
This doesn't make people that feed live lazy at all. Having that many animals you have to Weigh your options. Am I going to spend 4 hours or more, feeding, heating up rats over and over with the hair dryer, doing the zombie dance? Or am I going to spend an hour feeding bc i have to spend the other three hours cleaning bins. Or spraying bins, filling water bowls. Etc.
What choice would you make if you had 60 hungry snakes, worked a full time job, had to keep everyone clean, etc? Would you still go for the zombie dance? Even if it cut in to bin cleaning time, or job time, kids time etc... Or does it seem like a different situation then?
I guess what I'm saying with all of this is everyone has their reasons for feeding how and what they do. A bit
More comes into play than just being lazy or not lazy when you have a large collection. But I know for a fact that 99.9% of folks on this site that do feed live know what precautions to take. As I said before BOTH live and ft have their risks. Not either one is safer than the other if the person is uneducated about the risks associated with each.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

Well said.

I agree w/ everything stated above.
And for the record, I too feed weanlings who are practically helpless. So no damage done to the snakes. (And not sure why someone would feed a rabbit to a BP.....that's trouble ready to happen)

[Iancusp]

So should I.feed live or f-t

[Highline Reptiles South]

I feed live because :

a) I breed my own rats
b) BPs more readily take to live
c) It seems silly to prekill when my BPs prefer live
d) Never have had a serious injury

Now, I do watch them feed with a pair of hemostats and intervene if i have to. I figure in the wild they take the odd bite or two and i care for any minor bite in captivity..

[Egapal]

I am going to stick to the key points.

And it DOES matter how many generations of animal are bred in captivity...uhm...that is kind of the point. how many does it take to become domesticated...to show signs of domestication, etc. You and satomi are saying it takes too many, to have shown up already..AND that bps are NOT being selected for personality traits, that they are ONLY being selected for color. I am saying that i can PROVE otherwise, since I have two snakes from a breeder who has bred normals for 20 years, and i have two normals who are each from that breeder, who has stated that they were selected for their easy going personality and easy acceptance to captivity. I don't see how this is an argument at all *lol* I am clearly stating a fact. You can of course, choose to disagree, but since you cannot prove it, you cannot disprove it. You can concede to calling it a theory, that there are some bps out there that were selected for their "domesticated traits".

I really think if you take a second to read, and reread this last paragraph...you will see what i am saying, and understand it.

You do not understand domestication. Ok you have two snakes from someone who has been breeding normals for 20 years. Lets assume the person started with 100 adult normal females (they probably started with 1). Lets further assume that they chose the tamest 10% to breed, that's called selecting for a trait (Real domestication studies have been done starting with 10s of thousands of animals and only breeding the top 1%). Lets assume that they were all paired with the tamest male they could find, they all took, and all produced an average of 10 eggs 50/50 male and female.(odds of this happening are super low) So 2 years later lets assume all 50 females are old enough to breed and again they choose the tamest 10 to breed and repeat with the same results. 20 years later you have at best 10 generations. That's enough to start to see changes assuming your breeder was as good as the Russians who worked with the foxes. In reality you probably got 7 generations or less and they probably started with a hand full of snakes which means they didn't do a drastic enough selection process to see change. Furthermore you are demonstrating that you don't know what an argument, fact, or theory are. It may be a fact that the people who sold you the snakes said they were from a long line of domestication efforts but you certainly haven't proven that is the case. How many animals did they start with? What percentage did they breed. What percentage of those were selected to breed. Did they take precautions to avoid inbreeding. Even if they did all of this they would still have to demonstrate that the snakes they have breed are in some way different from wild snakes. You haven't proven anything. You have said some stuff. A theory is an explanation of why the facts are what they are. You haven't presented a theory. You have presented an understanding of what domestication is that differs widely from the excepted definition. Once again there is much more to domestication than you have read so far.

Anyone who has studied science, not even biology specifically cannot disagree with this statement. There are questions/problems just like it on the SATs.
I will concede that I have perhaps not been as clear in my previous statements, to help you understand exactly what i'm saying. I think we agree on some things, but are not seeing it that way due to the nature of our discussion...ie: on a text forum.

For instance...

You said my point about watching the snakes during a live feed was taken. Great! But then you go on to say

" I understand why you posted the pics. My point is that we have all seen these pics. We don't feed live because we just never thought about it. Its dishonest of you to put a picture of a BP nearly gutted by a rabbit in a thread where you are trying to make the point that feeding F/T is safer. It's simply not relevant in that it was hurt by a rabbit. Nearly no one would consider feeding a rabbit to their BP and if they did it would be a baby not capable of the damage you showed. By posing that picture you are saying that we are putting our snakes at that kind of risk without actually saying the words. That's just dishonest. The picture of the dehydrated starved snake is equally not relevant. Its an emotional plea. "


So, you say you understand. Then you for some reason go on to claim I am being dishonest in some way. That's simply not true. I closed the talk about why to feed live, quite a few posts ago. I said i had gathered reasons why people do it.
Then I posted, yes, an emotional plea, that if people are going to feed live, to watch their snakes. I don't see how this is dishonest. Please explain to me in detail how it is.

Its dishonest because your example does not come even close to the norm. Even the people on this forum who don't watch their snakes while they are feeding live don't feed their BP RABBITS.

You are trying to make a point about what we all do, and to make that point you show a snake that was injured from something that non of us do. That's what makes it dishonest.

The second picture is from a snake that kinda has a small scar. That doesn't even make a point. I am not sure why you showed that.

It is 100% honest. It is also, you are right, 100% emotional. BTW this thread is NOT about trying to get people to feed f/t over live. I have made that clear many times. lol

I simply asked why people do it...i wanted factual reasons.
I learned the reasons.
After learning the reasons, I simply stated that I disagree with the many statements that people feed, and then walk away from their animals.

Blah, we are going around and around here. It's not really a healthy debate when we start repeating ourselves over and over.

I read the whole thread. There might have been one person who said they fed live and walked away. You don't know what that person was feeding. If the person was feeding rat fuzzies there is no danger in walking away and not watching. This is my whole point. Who are you talking too. You appear to be trying to make a point about feeding live vs f/t. All of your actions indicated that. If you weren't I would expect you to ask questions about some of the great points people have made. Instead you fixate on the feeding unattended and make an emotional plea about that. What I am saying is that I have been on this forum a while and the veterans will all tell you not to feed live unattended. I say this again because you don't seam to acknowledge any points that anyone has made.

[drama x]

Wow alot of arguments in here lol

anyways...

I personally feed my snakes f/t, its just more convient for me that way. I stock up on f/t at reptile expos for really cheap and im set. Its better than keeping stinky mice and rats around the house lol


and for the record i agree with missy