Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

[Egapal]

Egapal, i had what i thought was a great debate to respond with, but i'll just shorten it to that I think f/t can be re-frozen as many times as it takes, as long as there is no introduced bacteria that is resilient to freezing....or there is no freezer burn.

If you believe this strongly then I would suggest you try this experiment. Buy two steaks. Freeze them both. Thaw one and then leave it out on the counter for a few hours then refreeze it. Repeat this more than twice and then thaw them both cook them. Let me know if you can taste a difference. The cells walls rupture when ice crystals form. If you do this more than a few times it really changes what you are eating.

That is also why i think it's weird people insist they have to throw out food, if the snake doesn't eat it the first try. F/T are way cheaper than live, at least for me. In a year, i think i've thrown out two mice because they became too rank.

You are lucky. Did you read my story about my snake that did not eat for 9 months. I am glad you brought up that frozen is cheaper. I don't care about that. I care about minimizing the suffering and death that I cause. I have seen how some of these big places raise their rodents and I am much happier with the quality of life my rodents have.

In the wild, BPs will eat corpses of rodents, etc. They do that at my house too...one of my dumeril's won't even take food unless it's left in her cage for a few hours. The previous owner said she was afraid of live, so i haven't tried....which if i did, i would probably still go for a bop on the head first!

BP's also starve to death in the wild, get eaten by birds of prey and contract various parasites from the corpses they eat in the wild. I am not at all convinced by the "Well in the wild" argument. So I will just ignore this part.

Still, I would say that a good portion of them have been domesticated to a point, since as i copied earlier " from wikipedia 'Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control.' "

Please explain to me how your snake is any different from one caught in the wild. There is no selection for behavior going on that I can see in the BP trade. So I say again you are not reading that critically. The part about being accustomed to human provision and control has to be as a result of human selective breeding over time. Compare a dog to a wolf, and likewise I can provide a long list of domestic animals that look and act nothing like their wild ancestors. Conversely people can and do pass off wild BP as captive bred all the time.

I mean, that has to be agreed with a little bit! It's not just opinion!
The fact that they ARE docile naturally...and those are the ones chosen from the wild, and those are the ones who are bred in captivity, means they are perposely selected, and become accostomed to human provision and control..

No I don't agree at all and it is just your opinion. You first premise is false and so your entire argument is flawed. People do not, did not, and from what I can tell won't select BP from the wild that are more docile. I have read about and watched videos of BP being captured in the wild. I have never seen any selection for temperament and I have not heard anyone suggesting that their is such selection.

..even if we take the food out of it all together...they rely on us for everything else. I know one of my BPs checks his water dish EVERY day for fresh water. (It's quite cute actually
He's actually the most violent dude i have besides my carpet python.
His name is "Bitey" LOL
He snatches his food, and will protect it (not just look over it for a good place to start eating), and he will CHARGE you, and try to chase you away if you come near. That's funny too, but i really try to stay away from him when he's eating *lol* My other 3 bps, and my other many snakes act nothing like this.
But the brat still waits for his human go give him water!
That is, to me, a clear sign of domestication, even at a small level.

All you have demonstrated with your story is an ability to learn patterns. This is not a sign of domestication. A tiger in a zoo might learn when feeding time is, its not domesticated. A gorilla can be taught sign language. Still not domesticated. If you think that your snake waiting for water is a sign of domestication then you don't understand what domestication is.

Anyway, i don't think i can change anyone's opinion. I don't really like the idea of feeding live...but i understand the need in CERTAIN cases. As for people with like 60 snakes, i feel it's just lazy. No offense, but really...we cage them, provide for them, and they could not survive in captivity without us...so why wouldn't we at least WATCH to make sure they are not hurt? Of course their scales provide protection...that's how they were designed. They are more durable than our skin...which is OUR protection..but that doesn't mean it's invulnerable or like armor or something. Jeez, These are two of my rescue snakes.

Ok what you are doing here is called constructing a straw man. Of course they can't survive in captivity without us. Mice will virtually never climb into a tank that a snake can't get out of. The prevailing wisdom on this forum is that if you feed live you watch the feeding. You will see advice all over this forum saying you should not feed live unattended. In fact their scales are like armor. We as humans designed armor to mimic reptiles scales. No one said they were invulnerable.

Jasper has a huge scar along his underside from the kick of a rabbit...not to mention numerous bite marks and messed up scales from rats.

No respected member of this forum would feed a rabbit capable of doing that to their BP. This is not a picture of what happens when you feed live.

Ribs (so called because he was 1.5lbs at 4 feet in length and almost dead from dehydration and starvation) has a scarred over nostril...though you can't see it very well here, though you can see the tail scar.

Dehydration and starvation are not from feeding live. The scars are sad but once again if they came from feeding live its certainly not indicative of all keepers.

Just really unnecessary. If we don't have the time to watch our animals and make sure they are safe and not getting "Blemmishes" then we just shouldn't own the animal. If we have so many we can't make the time? Same thing.

These may be extreme cases...though I have seen and heard of worse...but WHY risk it? Why? Because it's easier for us, or we're lazy? *snort* that's just wrong.

I am fine with live if you beat it on the head, and WATCH your snake. Whatever is cheaper for you, fine, but i cringe when i hear all these people saying they have double figure #'s of snakes and they just throw food in there.

You are upset with your idea of feeding live. It doesn't match the reality of most snake keepers. I could give you thousands of pictures of people who have died horribly in car accidents. Non of that is a solid argument against driving. Crossing the road can go horribly wrong too but you aren't a bad parent for letting your kids do it. Sure if you let them cross at a young age without supervisions but you would have to witness that to condemn that person. You can't just judge people without knowing the details. Its just not that simple.

[Egapal]

I just hope ppl don't use bowls or cups to put the rat to thaw in. That's gross. Just dead animals in peoples fridge besides pork, chicken etc is gross lol. Just saying.

LOL.. yeah a chopped up dead cow, chicken or pig is fine but a mouse....GROSS. Come on lets all be adults here its just a dead mouse. I will literally lick my fingers after eating dead chicken how gross is this really.

[Wh00h0069]

The only reason that I feed live to some of my snakes is they refuse to eat anything other than live. I try my best to switch them, but I will not starve my snakes just because they refuse to take f/t.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Little brats *lol* and understood. Case by case is of course realistic.

Indeed! I just hope people realize that. I just got the impression that people just throw one in, and that's it. Until next feeding. They're too busy to worry about it, kind of thing. I really hope that's not the case for anyone.

That is a fact! I must admit, not too long ago I heard of this happening to a snake. I got all paranoid. Unless i sit there pulling rat teeth though, what am I going to do about it? I can clip toenails...or at least in our case we soak our meals until they thaw, and then warm, so i'm sure the keratin in then nails soften...so i don't usually cut them down. But teeth...if they're going to get hurt sometimes, they just are. I try to mother and protect them as much as i can, though *lol*

Yup. But, that doesn't mean i'm not going to keep trying, or not bop it in the head, or freeze it if it dies, and try to refeed anyway *lol* I guess i just want to hear that it's worth the time, for people to take that little extra step. I know i'm not going to change anyone's mind, but maybe they'll just think about things a little differently sometimes. Hey, prevention is the first cure.



LOL That is true. I do realize i'm putting extreme cases out there. My problem is not even really live food...it's the attitude, and lack of enthusiasim i see sometimes.

Anyway...One last question I forgot about! If you feed live...what do you do about fleas?? I'm going to be treating a snake next week (after the good'ol paycheck) for tapeworms. I've read that they get these, from the fleas ingested along with live food.

Thoughts?

If the rats you are feeding have FLEAS...omg, find a different supplier! That's horrifying! (Not to mention dangerous).
I would never go NEAR anyone who gave me a rat with fleas on it, and I certainly wouldn't feed it to my snakes.

Lice and mites are also not acceptable. Feeders should be healthy and free of parasites! If they aren't, then the rodent breeder is doing something VERY wrong. Sniffles from myco are one thing, but fleas? Really?

By the way, I see the 'scales like armor' comment, a lot. Their scales are not like armor, they are like your fingernails, only significantly thinner. They protect from minor scratches, and that's all. They will protect a snake from being scratched by a kicking rodent, but rat and mouse teeth will go through them like butter, so don't believe that offers significant protection, lol.
Seriously, rats CAN chew through concrete.

[satomi325]

I do concede that perhaps BPs are not fully domesticated, as i did look it up and they are constantly imported (which i think is ridiculous and unnecessary). You are right in saying they were chosen as a great pet because they are mostly naturally docile...
Still, I would say that a good portion of them have been domesticated to a point, since as i copied earlier " from wikipedia 'Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control.' "

I mean, that has to be agreed with a little bit! It's not just opinion!
The fact that they ARE docile naturally...and those are the ones chosen from the wild, and those are the ones who are bred in captivity, means they are perposely selected, and become accostomed to human provision and control....even if we take the food out of it all together...they rely on us for everything else. I know one of my BPs checks his water dish EVERY day for fresh water. (It's quite cute actually

Ball Pythons, or any snake for the matter, are not domesticated animals. I am an animal biologist pre-vet. I think you misunderstand the wiki definition (and wiki isn't always correct). Domestication is selective breeding for human use and manipulation - to control an animal or plant's behavior and/or to make them dependent on humans for survival. In plants, different parts of a plant are modified for food. For example, a broccoli is a modified flower that was selectively bred. A potato is a modified stem. People have done the same to animals. Animals have had their behaviors modified for human use. (Snakes have not been modified for behavior. Just their looks.) Dogs have been selectively bred from wolves to do certain duties such as herding, retrieving, & guarding. Some dogs, such as terriers, are bred to kill rats. But do they know that the rats are a source of food? Probably not. They were bred to kill vermin, not eat them. (I'm sure there are exceptions). A dog in a city setting can survive off trash and scavenging. You throw that same dog into a remote wilderness, and the chances of survival are low because they are dependent on humans.

Another example, ferrets were originally domesticated from European Polecats to chase and kill rabbits and rodents. Ferreting in the US is illegal and they are now America's #3 pet after cats and dogs. They are also highly dependent on humans for survival. Not just us giving water or pouring kibble into a bowl. Throw a ferret outside and what will they do? They'll die in a matter of days. They don't know how to track prey or build a shelter. Many ferrets don't even know a mouse is a source of food unless specifically trained. The chances of a domestic ferret finding a mouse out in the wild is close to zero. The chances of it walking into someone's house is greater. They are highly dependent on humans because they don't know how to survive naturally.

I think this is the part you misunderstand. Ball pythons retain their natural instincts from the moment they hatch. Many domesticated animals do not unless under extreme circumstances that make an animal go feral. (note: feral is not the same as stray and does take multiple generations to reach). Just because we take out a snake's water dish and don't throw a rat into their tub does NOT mean they naturally rely on humans. They rely on humans because they're forced to, not because they don't know how to survive w/o aide. You return a BP(even those that are captive hatched) to Africa, and the chances of their survival is significantly higher than a true domesticated animal returning to the wild.


Also, checking a water bowl is an acclimation, not adaptation to humans or domestication. Acclimation happens w/i an organism's life. Adaptation occurs over many generations.

[Carbonsnake]

After haveing uneaten rats escape and scare the crap out of me when I found them later, I switched to ft. Snakes wouldn't eat for months, never gave them a choice, once they got hungry enough they took them. Never looked back, I order 100+ at a time keep them in a cooler(I like to think it keeps the other food smells off) in a big freezer. So for 10 years now they have been on nothing but ft.

[Missy King]

egapal, i was agreeing with you on most of the things, and trying to debate on the others. You're acting really argumentative and i think taking what i'm saying the wrong way.


BTW what is your definition of domesticated? I copy/pasted the actual definition, so please do, let's see what you come up with. That is why i said you can't argue with it...it IS a fact because that is what the word means. *rolls eyes*

you also said previously that ball pythons were naturally docile. then you just said that they aren't and went on a fussy paragraph to me about how they have, and have never been chosen from the wild because they are docile. *lol* you are really going at it.

ALso, in this thread people have said they throw rats or mice in the cages or tubs, and walk away for hours. I don't know why you're defending the site as if i'm attacking it and saying it doesn't happen. I'm just saying i know i won't get people to not feed live, but they can at least watch to make sure the snakes are okay.

also, you can freeze and unfreeze a steak all you want. has nothing to do with the fact that ball pythons will eat dead animals in the wild. has nothing to do with the fact that freezing does kill a lot of bacteria, so that even though the frozen/thawd mouse might stink, and be decaying, it can still be processed by the snake's body. True that wild snakes can and will and may get sick from eating dead animals. But they DO eat them. i don't know why you said i was trying to convince you otherwise or whatever it was you said you couldn't be convinced of. I actually clearly said that though i didn't like it, you should feed your snake what it will eat *shrug*

THe single only thing i have been trying to convince anyone of was that they should watch their snakes when there is live prey in the bin with them so that they don't get hurt, because they CAN get hurt.
Other than that, i had my question as to WHY people feed live, answered. People worry about cost, and they find it easier to feed live.
Since finding that out, all i said was that i find it cheaper to feed thawed.
In response, someone else said THEY found it more expensive to throw out uneaten food...to which i said, i have not found it more expensive. That i had only thrown out food a few times. That i DO refreeze, and my snakes are and do NOT get sick.

Not only can that be proven by the fact that my snakes just aren't sick, but freezing DOES kill bacteria that would make them sick. Fact.

If the food item does start to stink, and break down, that bacteria is NOT bad for the snake.
And, snakes in the wild DO consume rotten or rotting food. Yes those snakes do get sick. There are also other parasites and bacteria working on the wild rotted food item.
ANyway, i was bringing up the "in the wild" thing because....it's just a fact i am using to show you that eating dead food in captivity is not just a captive thing, it is also practiced in the wild. FACT.

WHew...lastly i posted the pics of the snakes, because i was pointing out what happens when you leave snakes unattended with live food items. I did not at all say that feeding live caused dehydration or starvation. Please reread if you think i did. I clearly was just saying what had happened along WITH a poor live feed, for these two snakes.

I thought you were cool, man.

[Missy King]

Ball Pythons, or any snake for the matter, are not domesticated animals. I am an animal biologist pre-vet. I think you misunderstand the wiki definition (and wiki isn't always correct).

I used Dictionary.com

Domestication is selective breeding for human use and manipulation - to control an animal or plant's behavior and/or to make them dependent on humans for survival. ...

Correct. I agreed with that in my second to last post.

Dogs have been selectively bred from wolves to do certain duties such as herding, retrieving, & guarding. Some dogs, such as terriers, are bred to kill rats. But do they know that the rats are a source of food? Probably not. They were bred to kill vermin, not eat them. (I'm sure there are exceptions). A dog in a city setting can survive off trash and scavenging. You throw that same dog into a remote wilderness, and the chances of survival are low because they are dependent on humans.

True. However, i have a couple of snakes that have been bred from lines that have been in captivity for 20 years, and one for 15 years. Both of these snakes to not strike their food. THey do not like their food to move. THey only eat dead food. If put in the wild, i believe these two snakes could not take care of themselves, and are therefore, slightly domesticated. They, and their parents, were selected as pets because they were docile, easy going, and content to be reliant on humans for their needs. They were selected, and manipulated by the breeders to continue a line of friendly and easy going f/t eating snakes, because that is what was easiest to sell as a pet. How, by your own definition of domestication, can they not be even slightly domesticated? It's a broad generalization to say that all BPs in captivity were only selected for color and not behavior. This is where i say it strays from fact, and goes into opinion (which i said was frustrating and i didn't like)...because i interpret the definition of domestication to include these two snakes in-particular, based upon their actions and reactions to stimuli.
You also said

(Snakes have not been modified for behavior. Just their looks.)...

This is a generalization, and I believe that exceptions to this exist....which mean those exceptions fall into the "domesticated" definition. This is an opinion which can be tested to create fact either way it is said. it just CAN be tested, i mean.
Saying "All ball pythons are domesticated" was incorrect on my part, just as saying "all by pythons are not domesticated" was incorrect on your part. What is more accurate is to say that "It can be proven that many ball pythons do not fit into the domesticated definitions..." thus also concluding that there may be some that can.

(Snakes have not been modified for behavior. Just their looks.)

this just frankly cannot be a truth for ALL snakes like this statement implies

Just because we take out a snake's water dish and don't throw a rat into their tub does NOT mean they naturally rely on humans. They rely on humans because they're forced to, not because they don't know how to survive w/o aide.

Correct and exactly what i was trying to say...except you go on to say

You return a BP(even those that are captive hatched) to Africa, and the chances of their survival is significantly higher than a true domesticated animal returning to the wild.

which is probably true, however, there are exceptions. Even basic statistics will agree there are exceptions.

Also, checking a water bowl is an acclimation, not adaptation to humans or domestication. Acclimation happens w/i an organism's life. Adaptation occurs over many generations.

True. I still think there are many examples of domestication, that come from a few generations of adaptation to the dependence on humans for survival, as stated by the definition of domestication.

With so many generations of snakes out there, and for as many years as they have been being bred, it cannot be a 100% true statement to say that there are not some domesticated bps. That's my point.

[luvmyballs]

We prefer to feed p/k. My snakes prefer that to f/t.. and to be honest its way more convenient to bring home live rats Bonk them on the head and throw them in the feeding tub. Plus we have snakes that wont eat if temp isn't right or in its not still a little bit live.

[freezingdwarf]

I am a breeder and have over a hundred animals. Most of the rats i breed here, as well as ASF's and Gerbils for those picky females. I have not been successful in breeding mice, so I buy them generally. I feed only live rats that are a few weeks old, I have to feed more, but they are not aggressive. That is until a snake strikes and misses. I feed in cycles, and do average 30 or so at a time, and one type of rodent at a time. I have a full time job, so to feed f/t would literally take all of my time.

So, with that said, the scariest thing is with the mice and the smaller snakes. Mice are the most aggressive. I keep a kibble of food in to preoccupy the mouse, and keep an eye on all at the same time.

Yes, the bites that come from being coiled happen, and one has to watch for that. But I have yet to get serious injury.