Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

[Missy King]

Actually the other question i asked was, do you debilitate the food before giving it to your snake? And how? A quick bop in the head?

IF you feed f/t...how do you keep the food item warm? Usually my pets slither around, see it, stop, strike, and eat it pretty quickly. But every now and then one sniffs around it for a long time before consuming, and I think it's because the food item cools off. They still eat it, but Id' like to find a more efficient way to keep it warm for them.

[Faerylee]

I have one snake refusing f/t right now, other wise it's all f/t. And with feeding the one live, I stun the rats (yup, a quick bop on the head) and hold them in front of the snake, and he gobbles them up right away, yet he refuses f/t... bugger!
As for keeping the rodent warm, I've honestly never bothered. If they don't eat it right away, they eat it cold over night, and if they refuse that meal, they wait till next feeding time.

[rabernet]

I feed live to all my ball pythons except my albino, and that's only because I don't like seeing any blemishes on him, like scratches from a kicking rodent. It doesn't hurt them, their scales are designed and do protect them.

I've fed well over 15K live prey, with no issues or injuries. I don't have a calculator handy to do the percentages, but even if I had say 3 significant injuries in 15K feedings, it's much less than a 1% risk of injury. It's something like .0003% chance.

I have no desire to thaw out 60+ rodents every week, nor the time to do the zombie dance to 60+ snakes.

Ball pythons are well designed to quickly and efficiently dispatch their prey. I open a tub, drop rat in, listen for the thump, and repeat - 59 more times.

[Twist]

I fed all of my snakes live. My most recent snake - a retic, will eat live or pk. The first few times I fed her pk I did the zombie dance, she came out from under her log, and stuck. That's great and all, but it's so much different than feeding her live. She's in a 55gal aquarium with looooots of foliage,obstacles and hides and a multi level system of sorts. She'll actually stalk her mouse or rat for 10-15 minutes till it dawns on her "hey that's food". The feeding response is crazy, after the first mouse the next one (if the pet store is out of small rats) goes almost instantly. In our efforts to make it as safe as we can for them we're turning their lives into a dull existance. They live in an enclosure for 90% of their lives. It's the least I can do for her, is give her a bit of excitement. After the first one she's.all excited and wobbly and twitchy. It makes me happy because I know she's.got some adrenaline going through her little body for the first time that week. If the strike isn't a headshot and there's room to maneuver and bite, I end the rodents struggle right there. I supervise the entire feeding session. One rat bite on the snakes body isn't going to cause major damage unless its on the head. All of these horrible pictures you see on the internet of snakes being gnawed down to the spine are from irresponsible owners leaving rats in with their snakes overnight.

Feed live but do it responsibly or feed pk/ft. That's how I see it.

Sent from my EVO 3D using Tapatalk

[Egapal]

I love that you are trying to come at this from a fact based perspective. Let me first comment on a few things you mention

There is no problem refreezing. The cold needed to freeze the meat, kills bacteria. Not to mention, ball pythons will eat found food "in the wild" and will, and do, eat "found" food in captivity. My dumeril's boas will ONLY eat food i leave out for them. Feel free to find facts to disprove that a ball will eat already dead, and/or slightly "gone bad" food. Also feel free to find out if freezing things will kill most bacteria.

I would only refreeze once. After that I would not trust it. I could be wrong on this. What do you think?

Please be specific....how many generations is "several"? I would think a breeder like say, Corey Woods, or Raph Davis have a considerable amount of generations under their belt. Quite a bit more than "several".
Just a glance from wikipedia "Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control. In the Convention on Biological Diversity a domesticated species is defined as a 'species in which the evolutionary process has been influenced by humans to meet their needs'[1]. Therefore, a defining characteristic of domestication is artificial selection by humans."

It would not take more than -my- definition of "Several" ...for generations of ball pythons to become more quickly adapted to captivity, humans, and though would still have an instinct to kill for food...would be dimmed into thinking f/t is perfectly fine.


A learned behavior is exactly that...something learned. Any hatchling would only have instinct. I think you've used the term in error...did you pet peeve yourself? lol
The two hatchlings may have the same basic instincts, however a domesticated/captive bred animal would adapt far quicker to becoming more docile. The captive bred animal accepting any new Learned Behavior of being domesticated, quicker than the wild caught animals that still have a high instinct....because it hasn't been bred out of them over "several" generations.

Ok you said a lot here but lets look at the nova special on fox. The Russians took the tamest 3 or so percent of the fox at a fur farm to start this study and then domesticated selecting for the most tame. The ball python community is not selecting for most likely to eat F/T and therefor there is very little change in that behavior. Domestication is not a single thing. It's much more complicated than that.

It shouldn't be opinion at all, however it's easier for people to justify their feeding, or their not feeding, as so. There are facts, which is what I asked for, though I have not seen many in response. So, you are correct in say both are opinions, really I just wish people would say more than their opinion.

It should be looked at by a case by case basis, such as it would factually be more appropriate to feed a wild caught, or a higher instinct snake live food...compared to a more domesticated animal that has say....been, handled, picked, chosen, bred and sold to be docile.

You are right that it should be based on more than opinion but you can't force people to make decisions the way you feel they should. Also Ball Pythons have not been bred and sold to be docile. They are naturally docile and they have been bred for their color morphs or not selected for above and beyond, those that survive in captivity have a chance to breed. Don't forget a large number of BP's sold in pet shops are very few if any generations removed from the wild.

There is a NOVA study done on dogs wild foxes that shows that a wild pack, which had been bred, and had certain foxes with certain traits selected for less more than three generations ended with an end group of happy, licking, lovable foxes...and another group of violent, angry, afraid, wild and snarling pups.

SO really, despite how I am actually not someone who feeds my snakes live, and will have no problem trying to transition a live eater to f/t...i in no way think it's a needed "excitement" or "better" for the snake, or "cruel" to the snake to not let it eat live. Unless I actually walk outside and pick up a random snake, the snakes I have are in the pet trade, and have been bred in the pet trade. They are a portion domesticated, you must concede, and will adapt easier and fuller to the conditions i'd prefer for their safety.

I believe you are 100% correct that the snakes don't "need excitement." These snakes just want to eat. The reason they constrict F/T is not necessarily because they are fooled into believing the rodent is alive. They have evolved to assume prey is alive as failure to do so can and does result in bites that can lead to death. I don't concede that BP are partially domesticated though. I don't see at as relevant regardless.

Anyway, it seems like a lot of people don't have a yay or nay opinion, as much as it's easier for them to feed their snakes live. That is a fact i was looking for....not an opinion.

It also seems like a lot of people are really responsible, and try to keep their snakes safe. I really like that. There is no reason to have the snake hurt, at all. We are the captors, protectors, and caregivers for our pets. and they ARE pets... they ARE captive...it's up to us to keep them in safe situations.
I know I appreciate reading that people don't leave their pets alone with other animals that could harm them. I've seen too many hurt animals from irresponsible people!

The fact is that many snakes won't easily take F/T so that alone is a big reason many people feed live. I also feed my BP live. I don't feed my diamond x jungle carpet live anymore. To explain my carpet is now eating adult rodents and will take F/T or pre killed. She has also proven to be a great eater. For that reason and out of concern for her safty I feed her pre killed or F/T. My BP is a totally different story. She won't take anything but live. Now I have stopped trying to switch her to F/T and will never try again for good reason. She is a bad eater. I have fussed over husbandry and she just is a bad eater. So on her last 160 day fast I offered her a rodent every 10 days. That's 15 refusals. If I refreeze once (as earlier I said I won't do so more than once) I would have thrown at least 7 rodents away. Now I have no problem with a rodent dying to feed my snake. I do have a problem with a rodent dying to feed my trash. So now that I have a carpet that will shortly be on the same size rodent I could offer F/T again but with her eating as infrequently as she does I think it would be irresponsible of me to even potentially be the cause of a refusal when she might have eaten live. There are reasons why a person would feed live. Having told us all that you have I see no good reason whatsoever why YOU should feed live.

[WingedWolfPsion]

1) New hatchlings vastly prefer live, and some of my adults refuse to eat anything else. I see trying to start hatchlings on F/T as a waste of time. They can be switched over later. Also, convincing 70 uncertain hatchlings to eat F/T takes hours and hours.

2) It takes 2 hours (or less) to feed live to a collection of 100 snakes. It takes 4 hours to feed F/T. Uneaten live rodents in a closed collection, during the breeding season, can be returned to my rodent rack. Uneaten F/T goes in the trash.

3) No fussing with dangling a rodent over a marginally interested snake's head for 15 minutes while it makes up its mind.

4) It is possible that live or fresh PK is somewhat more nutritious than F/T.

That having been said, F/T is much safer, and I try to get my animals to accept it. I fed primarily F/T until a local rodent breeder set up shop here, enabling me to pick up rodent orders every week. It's just been easier to feed live since then. I may switch back to part F/T for animals I want to feed more often than once a week, though.

Live feedings must be carefully supervised. If a snake is inept at it, use PK.

If you have a smaller collection, and you can use F/T, I'd advise using F/T. When I have an employee, I will switch back to primarily F/T.

[Richard Hanson]

I've heard it isn't a terrible idea to sprinkle some rat/mouse food in the corner to distract the prey!

[Bellabob]

I've noticed that after a while of feeding f/t (if the snake was eating live before) they become very sluggish and inactive. They won't actually strike and coil, they'll just put their mouth on it and start swallowing.

I feed a mixture of both (all of my snakes will take either live or pre killed). They seem healthier and more alert when feeding live.

Just my two cents.

[akjadlnfkjfdkladf]

I think the main reason people feed live is convenience (it's just an opinion, it may not be the truth). I reason this because I find most people who feed live breed the feeders themselves, so there is less processing of the rat.

that assumes there's more effort in thawing a few rats a week than raising a rat colony.

feeding live is super convenient because you can just buy one and give it to the snake without any preparation needed. another huge plus to this is you don't need to keep a freezer full of rats.

i'll personally resort to feeding live if the snake won't take frozen, and there are plenty of snakes that will either only eat live or eat live muchhh more readily

[KingPythons]

I feed live to all my ball pythons except my albino, and that's only because I don't like seeing any blemishes on him, like scratches from a kicking rodent. It doesn't hurt them, their scales are designed and do protect them.

I've fed well over 15K live prey, with no issues or injuries. I don't have a calculator handy to do the percentages, but even if I had say 3 significant injuries in 15K feedings, it's much less than a 1% risk of injury. It's something like .0003% chance.

I have no desire to thaw out 60+ rodents every week, nor the time to do the zombie dance to 60+ snakes.

Ball pythons are well designed to quickly and efficiently dispatch their prey. I open a tub, drop rat in, listen for the thump, and repeat - 59 more times.

Couldn't of said it better!