Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

[GoingPostal]

I breed them so it's a lot easier to grab one out, bring it 5 feet to the snake cage and drop it in, if he's not interested, take it back out and put it in the cage. Otherwise I'd have to co2 them, freeze them, take them out and thaw hoping he wants to eat that day, heat it up and play with it, he's not interested in f/t anyways. I also think the fresher the better.

[rjk890]

We raise our own rodents, and feed our snakes what is available at the time.

There are times of feast, when our rattery is producing more then enough rodents that each snake get a live meal or two every 5-7 days, and we still have a large number of rodents that get put down and stored frozen.

Then there are times of famine, when our rodent production gets low.
Usually during hatchling season, when we are taking the litters of pinks, and putting the females right back into breeding rotation.
Every so often, we feed off our current breeders, and grow out the next generation of breeder rodents.
During those lulls we feed off the frozen rodents that were stored during the season of plenty.

I can honestly say that every one of our snakes will take live, p/k, or f/t without showing a preference at all.

I have NEVER fed any of them a mouse, but converted the first 50 animals in our collection over from f/t ASF's, to live regular rats, when they were in the 500g range.
With the exception of one, (a .1 Pastel 66%het TSK Axanthic,) they had no problem making the switch, and even went back and forth while we phased out the ASF's and got our reg. rats going.

That one female was stubborn, but I was even more stubborn.
She was a sporatic eaterfor a while but reached the 1200g range last Winter, at three years old.
I bred her to our Spider het TSK Axanthic, and witnessed two good locks.
She did not go on to give us a clutch, but turned into a very aggressive live rat eater, and has not missed a meal since mid-December 2010 (even in shed.)
She is 2400g, and is locked with our male Pastel het TSK Axanthic right now.

It always baffles me when people talk about how BP's are picky eaters.

[mainbutter]

If you have a live food eating snake that refuses dead food....do you occasionally still try to transition to F/T?

Yes.

However, I still feed live if they aren't taking dead.

[purplemuffin]

Yeah, most BPs aren't picky when it comes to live, though there are exceptions.

Though with other snakes..Man, I'll feed f/t like it's no tomorrow with no troubles. I have no excuse to feed live with Nagini, she'd take a warmed up sock if I offered it, LOL!

It seems with bps more than any other snake--if you plan to feed f/t..expect difficulties. You might not have troubles, but you have a better chance of struggling to get them to eat..than say trying to feed a boa f/t.

[wolfy-hound]

First, I don't think that refreezing a rodent is a good idea, nor is leaving it out for a day and then feeding it. Dead rats are meat. If you wouldn't leave a piece of chicken out to thaw, refreeze it and consider it healthy, I wouldn't do the same with a whole rat. Especially since the rodents are WHOLE, with guts and fun stuff inside that spoils extremely quickly. IMHO, it's feeding spoiled food.

Second, ball pythons are not domesticated. Domestication takes a lot longer than several generations. Ball pythons raised from hatching in captivity obviously would act differently than a wild caught ball python. However, if you took a egg from a wild caught ball python, hatched it in captivity, you would get the same behaviors. That's learned behaviors, not domestication. Just a little peeve of mine about using terms in error.

It is all opinion on whether feeding live is 'better and more natural' or 'irresponsible and cruel'. The debate over live vs FT has been done over and over, and will continue to be debated over and over. Some will scream that it's even "immoral" to feed live, no matter what. Some feel it's cruel to not feed live, so that the snake experiances the more natural behavior of hunting and killing it's prey. Both are opinions and as opinions, they are not wrong or right.

[KingPythons]

I've never had a problem with feeding live. Period. If your scare for ur animals safety, I hope you take all the right precautions. Size of prey at times can be people's 1st mistake on why your snake can be ate by it's prey, or hurt. The fact of talking about the wild and saying your snake can get away(or rat) if it wants is ridiculous. Why? Because you shouldn't be leaving your rat in with your ball unless your ball is hungry or etc. I mean that's why your ball is in captivity. Captivity= more responsibility for you. Do your part, work smarter not harder. Consider the scales on your ball python as armor. They know what there doing. Just tired of the danger of feeding live statements.

[blueberrypancakes]

I could give you a BS answer and think of some reason that I think live is better for my boy, or steal an answer from a more educated and experienced snake owner... BUT...
For me the honestly for real with facts answer is that I enjoy watching Jackson hunt and kill. Sorry if that offends...

When his prey gets bigger I will give him p/k, and he does eat it (I've given him f/t before, he takes it with no hesitation). Occasionally the pet store I go to is out of the rat size I give him so I get an adult mouse- and I kill it before I offer it to him. This is because we did have a bad experience with one giving him a good sized gash in the neck.

[Dragoon]

because my male bp just will not switch over even after refusing f/t rats, asf, and gerbils for 6 months and i wasn't comfortable going any longer due to lost weight. not much lost weight but the instant a live rat was dropped in he took it.

[Tarawr88]

My Ukki was an avid live-eater when I got him, refusing the mice I bought and killed FOR him, but if the mouse ran, he was all in to eat. I didn't have a local supplier for Frozen/Thawed mice where I lived (even travelled 20 minutes to get the live mice for him).

He had always been a live-eater-- the person I bought him from had him eating several live rat pups per week since she kept mostly redtails and he was the only ball python she had (and ultimately why she sold him.)

That said, the few times he did get bit, I was told by my vet to just put neosporin on him to promote healing (and he healed up very well, and I'm VERY thankful for that). It made me a nervous wreck to feed him and I eventually got to the point where I'd wait for him to strike the mouse, then I'd stick a ruler in for the mouse to bite JUST to be sure it didn't bite him. The happiest day for me was the day he, for whatever reason, switched himself over to Frozen/Thawed rats after I moved to Madison.

[Missy King]

First, I don't think that refreezing a rodent is a good idea, nor is leaving it out for a day and then feeding it. Dead rats are meat. If you wouldn't leave a piece of chicken out to thaw, refreeze it and consider it healthy, I wouldn't do the same with a whole rat. Especially since the rodents are WHOLE, with guts and fun stuff inside that spoils extremely quickly. IMHO, it's feeding spoiled food.

There is no problem refreezing. The cold needed to freeze the meat, kills bacteria. Not to mention, ball pythons will eat found food "in the wild" and will, and do, eat "found" food in captivity. My dumeril's boas will ONLY eat food i leave out for them. Feel free to find facts to disprove that a ball will eat already dead, and/or slightly "gone bad" food. Also feel free to find out if freezing things will kill most bacteria.

Second, ball pythons are not domesticated. Domestication takes a lot longer than several generations.

Please be specific....how many generations is "several"? I would think a breeder like say, Corey Woods, or Raph Davis have a considerable amount of generations under their belt. Quite a bit more than "several".
Just a glance from wikipedia "Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control. In the Convention on Biological Diversity a domesticated species is defined as a 'species in which the evolutionary process has been influenced by humans to meet their needs'[1]. Therefore, a defining characteristic of domestication is artificial selection by humans."

It would not take more than -my- definition of "Several" ...for generations of ball pythons to become more quickly adapted to captivity, humans, and though would still have an instinct to kill for food...would be dimmed into thinking f/t is perfectly fine.

Ball pythons raised from hatching in captivity obviously would act differently than a wild caught ball python. However, if you took a egg from a wild caught ball python, hatched it in captivity, you would get the same behaviors. That's learned behaviors, not domestication. Just a little peeve of mine about using terms in error.

A learned behavior is exactly that...something learned. Any hatchling would only have instinct. I think you've used the term in error...did you pet peeve yourself? lol
The two hatchlings may have the same basic instincts, however a domesticated/captive bred animal would adapt far quicker to becoming more docile. The captive bred animal accepting any new Learned Behavior of being domesticated, quicker than the wild caught animals that still have a high instinct....because it hasn't been bred out of them over "several" generations.

It is all opinion on whether feeding live is 'better and more natural' or 'irresponsible and cruel'. The debate over live vs FT has been done over and over, and will continue to be debated over and over. Some will scream that it's even "immoral" to feed live, no matter what. Some feel it's cruel to not feed live, so that the snake experiances the more natural behavior of hunting and killing it's prey. Both are opinions and as opinions, they are not wrong or right.

It shouldn't be opinion at all, however it's easier for people to justify their feeding, or their not feeding, as so. There are facts, which is what I asked for, though I have not seen many in response. So, you are correct in say both are opinions, really I just wish people would say more than their opinion.

It should be looked at by a case by case basis, such as it would factually be more appropriate to feed a wild caught, or a higher instinct snake live food...compared to a more domesticated animal that has say....been, handled, picked, chosen, bred and sold to be docile.

There is a NOVA study done on dogs wild foxes that shows that a wild pack, which had been bred, and had certain foxes with certain traits selected for less more than three generations ended with an end group of happy, licking, lovable foxes...and another group of violent, angry, afraid, wild and snarling pups.

SO really, despite how I am actually not someone who feeds my snakes live, and will have no problem trying to transition a live eater to f/t...i in no way think it's a needed "excitement" or "better" for the snake, or "cruel" to the snake to not let it eat live. Unless I actually walk outside and pick up a random snake, the snakes I have are in the pet trade, and have been bred in the pet trade. They are a portion domesticated, you must concede, and will adapt easier and fuller to the conditions i'd prefer for their safety.

Anyway, it seems like a lot of people don't have a yay or nay opinion, as much as it's easier for them to feed their snakes live. That is a fact i was looking for....not an opinion.

It also seems like a lot of people are really responsible, and try to keep their snakes safe. I really like that. There is no reason to have the snake hurt, at all. We are the captors, protectors, and caregivers for our pets. and they ARE pets... they ARE captive...it's up to us to keep them in safe situations.
I know I appreciate reading that people don't leave their pets alone with other animals that could harm them. I've seen too many hurt animals from irresponsible people!