Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

[Homegrownscales]

I will reply to the rest of it later, as I have some work to do, but this stood out like a sore thumb:

Intent has never been irrelevant. It is the difference between manslaughter and first degree murder.

Gavin.... We really aren't discussing
people torturing animals. Nor are we discussing manslaughter and murder. No one on here is malicious or hateful towards animals. No one is feeding live with the intent to torture or maim the prey. We all care very much for the animals we have as well as any that are in our care, such as feeder animals. I feel this representation has no ground in this conversation. If we were talking about people killing animals for pleasure or people killing people.... Then it makes sense.
What this discussion is about is, the difference between live prey and ft prey. Ball pythons along with many other reptiles don't have the intent to torture an animal. They don't have that capability. They are either hungry or not. Just because someone enjoys watching their pet eat/ feeds live out of convenience etc. doesn't mean their intent was to cause pain to either animal. Feeding a snake is no where near a :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r: fight or a dog fight even if it's live prey. The snakes don't toy with the prey. The prey isn't automatically freaked out and convulsing in fear. The death is humane, quick and 99% of the time causes no damage to the snake. Yes there are some minor instances where issues can happen but like another member said its no different than us getting a nick or scratch in our daily lives. Yes people can have worse problems. But every single instance of those worse issues was due to keeper error. Prey to large, not watching, leaving prey In tubs or tanks. Etc. Just like if you didn't use ft correctly you can have issues. Obviously the same is correct for live.



Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

[Skittles1101]

I see this thread keep popping up. I have no time to read all of the replies, however, it sure is getting heated! I must say I'm offended (not literally, but for argument's sake) that some people are saying that people who feed live are heartless, or enjoy watching the prey die, or whatever the argument has been.

I don't have a choice but to feed like to a minimum of one of my snakes. I've tried every single f/t prey item in every single manner and she wants NOTHING to do with it. Live mice, that's all she'll take. I take life very seriously, whether it be a spider, mouse, or human, and I think it's ridiculous to say that people who feed live don't give a crap about their animals. I for one, love my animals, sometimes a little too much. I cried like a girl when my first tarantula died. I pet and talk to every mouse I have to feed off to give it a few good minutes because it serves it's purpose. I have two pet rats! Do I enjoy feeding live? Absolutely not, I'd throw f/t at my snakes any chance I get, but not everyone has that choice.

OP, I simply prefer f/t simply because it's cheaper for me and easier to keep in bulk. I work more than full time, full time mom, and go to school part time. I have over 30 animals I have to care for, I literally don't have the time to breed my own and take care of my own mice or rats. F/t is simply more convenient. However, I do feed live to two of my balls currently. I do what I have to for my pets, and they only want live, so they get live. Period. I supervise every feeding as to avoid injury and have yet to have an issue, other than feeling bad for the mouse.

As I learned more about snakes and the people who keep them, the more comfortable I got about live feeders. I have respect for both sides, and respect their opinions and choices. It's sad that not everyone can think that way. I blame ignorance.

[satomi325]

What?

Putting a live mammal in the freezer is not humane in the slightest, whoever is doing that is possibly breaking the law. No respectable vet, breeder, snake enthusiast or otherwise would even do or entertain the thought of such a thing. I don't know where you're getting this information from.

Cervical dislocation and CO2 are the methods used which are approved by vets and animal laboratories the world over. Whoever chucks them alive in a freezer is just committing animal cruelty.

If you think putting a live mammal into a freezer is not humane, but constriction is, then perhaps you're the one who is cruel.... An animal can take hours to finally die of the cold. Being cold is not comfortable in anyway. It's even painful if it gets too cold or left too long. If you stick your hand in a bag of ice, I can assure you, your hand will start hurting. Death by constriction occurs in a matter of minutes. How can you compare that to death in a freezer, which can take hours?

Also C02 is NOT painless. I work in a laboratory. Hundreds and thousands of Rats and mice are euthanized by CO2 daily. I've seen the light leave the eyes of these animals. Their bright red eyes turn to a dull brown. It's not pleasant. Not at all. Lab rodents are naturally very calm and used to human presence. That is why they are used for lab work. The moment they're put it the CO2 chamber, they panic and act frightened. If you were suffocating, would it be painless? No. If feels like drowning. It's not like CO where, you just fall asleep and die. CO2 is a fast working process that is the most humane for euthanasia. That is why it is approved. Most humane doesn't mean painless. It just means compared to other methods of death, this emits the least suffering.

Most vets don't preform euthanasia with CO2. Maybe if its a poor animal shelter....But most vets do a drug overdosing w/ a intravenous injection. These injections renders an animal unconscious, then the heart goes into cardiac/respiratory arrest.

I have no problem with people feeding live rodents to their snakes, as long as it's done respectfully and the snake can't take a dead animal. What I do have a problem with though, is people feeding live to their snakes simply because it's "cool" or enjoy watching things die. I don't know what you folks think about people posting live feeding videos on YT, but most of the time it is done maliciously - not for the snake's benefit, but to put the feeder through unnecessary pain. Like as if it were a snuff film.

Ok. I have a few things to address. I'm sure most people don't have pleasure or enjoy watching their rats die. Most people here just put a rat in a tub and move onto another, then come back a few minutes later to check up on the snake to see if it ate. You keep saying that snakes get hurt easily. Those injured snakes probably have irresponsible owners. I feed small and more frequent, than large and less often. So instead of feeding a medium rat every 2 weeks, I feed 2 weanlings/1small small rat twice a week. No harm done to the snake.

Snakes eat live in the wild. I don't see what's so bad with feeding live in captivity. Just because they're captive doesn't mean they're not wild. They're still wild animals, just tame. There's a difference between domestic, wild, tame, feral, etc etc....
Yes there is a risk. But I believe many of us who truly love our animals will know how to avoid or deal with those risks.(i.e feeding smaller and more frequent, than larger prey and less often) As others have said, there are risks with F/T food as well. (And parasite eggs can lay dormant and hatch during the appropriate conditions. So parasites can stem from frozen food. (That's why it's required to cook frozen meat, isn't it?) And as others have stated, if somebody enjoys watching their snake eat live, what does that have to do w/ the actual animal eating? It's not unnatural. The snake is going to eat regardless if the rat is alive or dead. I don't think a lot of people enjoy seeing a rat suffer, however, it's just interesting to see the process of how a snake eats. People don't dislocate their jaws to swallow food bigger than their heads. So it's a unique thing to observe...

Also, eating live happens out in nature. A wild snake isn't going to come across a frozen thawed rat doing the zombie dance. And just because a snake is in captivity doesn't mean everyone should automatically feed f/t. Personally, mine won't eat f/t. But even if they did, I probably would keep feeding live. If f/t works for you, then thats good. But it may not work for others and their lifestyle....The forum is to share ideas, suggestions, and experiences....But no need to start preaching and pushing your ideals on others.


Note: big breeders don't feed f/t. They'll still feed live even though they have many staff and employees who do the feeding...So I don't understand your argument to get more staff....

Since when does a ferret need live food? And where did you get that 120% from? Made that up did you?

And regarding my ferrets. Yes I threw out 120% out randomly to make a significant point. I'm an animal biologist exotic pre-vet. I've been studying Ferret biology for a long time. Feeding whole prey IS FACTUALLY MORE HEALTHY THAN COMMERCIAL KIBBLE, which is what the majority of America feed's their ferrets.

Ferrets are obligate carnivores, which means they are meant to eat meat -- just meat. Ferrets are not designed to digest grains, fruit, vegetable, or sugars, or fillers such as corn. Grains, fruit, vegetable, sugars, & corn can lead to Insulinoma, one of the most common ferret diseases. Many kibble ingredients are not suitable for ferrets as they contain many of these ingredients. Kibble food also only has between 10-50% protein. How is that sufficient for a ferret when they are obligate carnivores!??! Ferrets in the UK are less prone to diseases found in US ferrets because many people feed whole prey in Europe.

the only nonmeat items ferrets may encounter in their diet would be in the stomach and intestinal tract of their prey, where it is partially digested. Ferrets have a very short GI tract unlike animals that eat more vegetation.

Whole prey provides natural dental care when the ferret gnaws the bones. Many owners report that their whole-prey-fed ferrets have healthier fur, more energy and fewer odors than those who eat processed ferret food. I can vouch for this personally as well

Please read this for further information.
If you need to to cite more sources, just let me know.


[/QUOTE]

Rats can be quite dangerous to ferrets when cornered. Live feeding a ferret is just irresponsible and cruel... it's just not necessary, they do not need live animals in their diets.

Have you read the whole thread??? I've posted a few times, and one of my posts stated that I feed my ferrets adult mice and weanling rats. So definitely no damage to my ferrets and it's a quick one hit kill to the feeders w/ minimum suffering. Why would I be irresponsible to either animals (rats and ferrets) and put them at risk to injury or unnecessary suffering??? Please read before spouting off something you don't know anything about.

Don't give me this "enrichment" BS either, you can use a dead mouse, tie it to a string and make a game out of that. Or use toys made for ferrets. Or use your hand to wrestle/tickle them - there's your enrichment.

I've seen people on YT put mice in bathtubs, call that "hunting" while they're either giggling about it in the background, putting rock music in the background, calling it an "epic battle" etc. IMO, most people feed live to ferrets just to watch their animal kill something. It's a power thing.

Ferrets are bred to kill vermin and chase rabbits. As a domestic animal, it is their working purpose.

How do you know that I haven't tried tying a mouse on a string to coax interest????You don't know. Well, I have, and my ferrets know the difference. They show ZERO interest in pre-killed prey. Ferrets are not scavengers by nature. Most animals who come across a corpse will not want to associate with it as it could have died from disease, etc etc.

Do you own ferrets? If yes, then I'm sure you will know that they have a short attention span. Serious ADD. They get tired of the same toys and games, as people do. I have a play room dedicated to my ferrets and even they get bored w/ the many toys they have. Providing live-whole prey gives them enrichment to practice what they were bred for. They're always eager to for a live mouse or rat. It stimulates their interest and physical body.

I too have seen 'bathtub hunting' on youtube. Well, you shouldn't judge everyone based on those videos. Everyone has different methods to give their ferrets live prey.

I for one am not feeding my ferrets live prey for 'power' or because I enjoy it. I breed my own feeders. They live like pets in my bedroom. I give them play time out of their cage for their own enrichment. I feed my ferrets live whole prey because IT IS HEALTHIER! I don't plan on spending hundreds and thousands of dollars in vet bills because my ferrets won't get Insulinoma.

Overall, you don't know anything about me or anybody from this thread outside of our word from this forum. So please don't judge, you many be wrong in your assumptions....

[zeion97]

Very nicely said satomi325.

[satomi325]

Apologies for the few grammar/missing words in my previous post. My mind was going to fast...

If you think putting a live mammal into a freezer is not humane, but constriction is, then perhaps you're the one who is cruel.... An animal can take hours to finally die of the cold. Being cold is not comfortable in anyway. It's even painful if it gets too cold or left too long. If you stick your hand in a bag of ice, I can assure you, your hand will start hurting. Death by constriction occurs in a matter of minutes. How can you compare that to death in a freezer, which can take hours?

Sorry, that was meant for whoever said freezing was ok... I misread Gavin's response. My mistake.