Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

[rabernet]

I don't know why you wouldn't drink milk past the SELL date, if it is still good. If it's expired, it's not necessarily bad. If it GOES bad throw it it...humans also do not have the ability to fight off bacteria from "bad" food...where as ball pythons can eat food that has been dead for a long time, not refrigerated, and by our standards, spoiled. That is just a fact.

Just because you type something, doesn't make it a fact. Please cite your sources that ball pythons can safely eat food that has been dead for a long time, that we would define as spoiled. For that matter, you also said that ball pythons scavenge dead food. Can you please cite that source as well?

[slackerz]

maybe everyone should write "that is just a fact" at the end of the post to make it a fact.

[Jay_Bunny]

You make an excellent point, but I just wanted to point out that ball pythons are not domesticated.

Yes, I am aware that ball pythons (as well as every other reptile species) are not domesticated by any means.

[satomi325]

On another note on the whole "ball python is domesticated and not wild anymore, therefore we should feed it f/t" argument.....

My dog is technically domesticated. When I begin breeding feeder animals (mice, rats, gerbils, hamsters, guinea pigs, rabbits, etc) I intend on putting him on a whole prey diet and yes, I will give him the opportunity to take down live prey if he has a high prey drive. My cats will be fed the same way and they are domesticated.

My ferrets already eat live prey. Twitch, my smallest, is my best hunter. Now, because of the size of a ferret, you would not allow them to take down a rat. It's nearly half their size. But mice are fair game and a favorite of my ferrets. They are a domesticated species, however even they get live food.

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I applaud you! Especially with the ferrets since they're obligate carnivores. I feed mine whole prey as well (adult mice and weanling rats). It's so much more healthier for them than all that commercial corn + 40% protein kibble nonsense....

[Skiploder]

I see people starting to beat the old "fresh is more nutritious than frozen" drum. Well, like most internet regurge material, it's part true, part false.

It depends on many, many variables, including the span of time between death and freezing and more importantly, which nutrients are being discussed.

Some nutrients are affected, some are minimally affected and some are not affected at all. In fruits and vegetables, the nutrients losses of vitamin C begin immediately after picking the produce item and actually are further lessened by the freezing process.

Now I know some people confuse their apples and oranges, but this is an easy one. Meat is not an apple nor an orange. It is meat, and meat does not lose nutrients through proper quick freezing like produce does and whole prey items lose even less than butchered cuts of meat that have longer processing times and lose juices containing nutrients during butchering.

In fact, meat, fish and poultry barely lose any nutrients at all, as proteins and Vitamins A and D are unaffected by the freezing process. There are losses - that much is true - but they are trivial and not worthy of any concern on the part of the keeper.

The losses incurred in frozen meat mainly take place when the meat is thawed, and juices are exuded containing the soluble proteins, vitamins and minerals. Again, whole items lose a lot less of these soluble proteins as they are leaked mainly into the body cavity. The amount of nutrient loss is dependent on the length of time of aging (time between death and freezing), whether frozen as a carcass or meat cuts, conditions of freezing and speed of thawing; it varies between 1% and 10% of the weight of the meat and is usually about 5% - and that is measured on butchered cuts of meat with longer processing times and inherently greater risk of soluble protein loss.

Bottom line - the loss that occurs during thawing is less than 5% of the nutrient content. Not a cogent reason alone to pick live over f/t.

I feed both. I don't breed rodents any more. 95% of my animals are on f/t but I have some that will only eat live.

Only a dimwit of the highest order would sit in judgment of someone who feeds live prey responsibly.

[Jessica Loesch]

I feed live.
1.) I cant get mine to take f/t.
2.) Its easier for me to go by the store and buy mice than having to thaw out frozen rats, warm them up, and dangle them around for my snakes to eat them.
3.) You hear it with nutritionists all the time that frozen foods loose a lot of their nutrients, its probably the same with mice right?


I've been stabbed in the roof of my mouth so many times from chips and what not, but it doesnt scare me away from eating them lol. I also closely supervise feeding time with pliars in hand ready to help. I wait untill the snake is completely done strangling and begins to eat before I put the lid back on.

Skiploder, as always, provided a very informative post that I think answered this question,
but remember, a nutritionist is someone who can go out and certify themselves and may not be very educated. A registered dietitian is someone who has had at least a bachelors and often masters degree, along with a dietetic internship, and they must get continuing education credits. THIS is the nutrition professional you want to listen to I will be one soon.

I feed live, nothing wrong with it. I think there are some very informative posts already so I will not repeat why I do so.

[zeion97]

On another note on the whole "ball python is domesticated and not wild anymore, therefore we should feed it f/t" argument.....

My dog is technically domesticated. When I begin breeding feeder animals (mice, rats, gerbils, hamsters, guinea pigs, rabbits, etc) I intend on putting him on a whole prey diet and yes, I will give him the opportunity to take down live prey if he has a high prey drive. My cats will be fed the same way and they are domesticated.

My ferrets already eat live prey. Twitch, my smallest, is my best hunter. Now, because of the size of a ferret, you would not allow them to take down a rat. It's nearly half their size. But mice are fair game and a favorite of my ferrets. They are a domesticated species, however even they get live food.

If done responsibly, live can be no more dangerous than feeding f/t. One could argue that nutrient levels can be affected by the freezing process. Some argue that taurine deteriorates after a while. F/T that you buy could have been spoiled and simply re-frozen and you end up feeding a spoiled prey item. (I've bought one of those. Thawed it out and it smelled like it had been decomposing for quite a while before it was re-frozen) I do not ever recommend re-freezing something that has been completely thawed out. If it is not completely thawed then re-freezing is okay, but never when its already thawed. I don't do that with my ferrets and I don't do that with my snakes. Whole prey is generally okay to be left out for 12 hours or so without spoilage. Sometimes I will pull my rats to thaw during the day while I'm working and feed when I get home. I never have a problem, but once I know it is fully thawed, I never leave it for more than a few hours before pulling it out of a tub and discarding it.

I like the fact you give your ferrets live prey. Not many people do this. But I see one flaw in what you said.
I personally believe no animal can be domesticated. Not only did We humans define this definition, but in part there still animals... they have all the instincts wild animals do. This is my opinion, I know we all have cat dogs and even rats that listen and such BUT!! They can still turn on a dime. Don't tear into me about this, this is my opinion..

I will admit I didn't read the entire thread, but from skimming It send the OP dis regards our opinions. If not I apologize.

I only own five snakes. 4 eat only live And 1 will eat F/T. I am trying to switch them over but they just wont. So I don't see a reason to feed 1 snakes F/T and the other 4 live, so currently they all get live and i try to occasionally slip in a F/T to no avail. This is just the way it works for me. I personally wish mine would eat F/T

[WingedWolfPsion]

Right, what Skiploder said. The nutritional benefit of live over FT is only slight. (However, ball pythons do get vitamin C, and all other nutrients, from their prey--the liver contains the vitamin C). I'm not sure whether B. Barczyk has completed his feeding trials that he introduced on Snakebytes, where he had one group of hatchlings eating prey dusted with a multivitamin, but I am curious about the results of that.
I have no feeling that my animals aren't getting good nutrition eating FT.

Keep in mind that if you feed cats in particular on a whole prey diet, you should NOT use frozen prey for them...or, if you do, you will NEED to add a thiamine supplement. I'm not sure whether that applies to ferrets or dogs.

It's certainly occurred to me that unused FT rodents could become dog snacks, but we don't currently have a dog, lol.

As for domestication...there is a LOT of confusion about what it actually is. We learned a tremendous amount about domestication from the fox farm experiments in Russia, and I would encourage anyone interested in it to look into them.

Essentially, domestication has a wide-ranging influence over an animal's endocrine system, personality, and even appearance. It does not necessarily have any effects on their instincts. Domesticated animals are docile, friendly or neutral towards human beings, and tend to have a variable appearance with many mutations of form, color, and pattern. (The fox farm foxes developed floppy ears, varied tail lengths, piebald coats, and more).

The sole selection process that caused all of these changes was merely selection for animals that did not show a fear or aggression response toward human beings. That's all.

In reptile species where selection for temperament has begun, the domestication process has also begun--corn snakes and leopard geckos are probably furthest along at this point, with relatively little wild blood being introduced (particularly in leopard geckos).
I would imagine that bearded dragons are also well on their way, particularly when one considers that no wild blood can be introduced into their current gene pools in the US and Europe.

All we need to do, to begin the domestication process in ball pythons, is start selecting for temperament, and stop introducing wild-origin snakes to our breeding programs.

[purplemuffin]

I actually feel like it may be the animals who are no longer allowed to be wild caught (Australian animals for those of us here, etc.) who would end up more 'domesticated' if anything.


I agree with Skiploader on the nutrient aspect of meat. While I know this isn't a fair comparison because we humans do eat more than just meat to balance our diet, I don't know many people who are concerned about eating meat that was frozen, most of us get our meat in the store freezers even. I remember someone actually using the orange reference in regards to freezing rodents, to which I wondered, since when are rodents fruit?

This has all been a fun and enlightening discussion, even if things tend to get a little heated. It's always good to know as much as we possibly can in order to constantly improve our keeping methods.

[nikitajane25]

Alright let me ask you guys this (it may not make sense to some but hopefully others will see where I'm going with this). Would you rather buy frozen produce or fresh produce? And why?