Rats Sneezing/Dying-Vet Visit Results-Going Forward-NEED HELP

[JohnNJ]

Backstory: Several rats died. Only thing visible was a little blood around the nostrils. Lots of sneezing started quickly. Some became lethargic with labored breathing.

Initial treatment: Started them on Tylan last Friday - 3ml of Tylan 200 per gallon of water in 8oz water bottles. Started with sugar mixed in for a few days and then stopped the sugar. Refilling bottles twice a day with a complete wash and fill every three days.

Initial results: Sneezing has almost completely stopped after a few days. Very sporadic now like it was before the illness. One female died one week after treatment started and another (isolated female) was put down at the same time with labored breathing.

Vet visit today: Pet rats kept separately from feeder colony were still sneezing. Vet prescribed Baytril and Doxy for 14 days. Vet said to cull any rats in the breeding group that had blood in their nostrils or showed symptoms like sneezing or difficulty breathing. Bacteria is very easily spread, He said to continue with the Tylan in water for the main group and disinfect everything with CHD.

Prognosis: The bacteria stays in their system and can (most likely will) cause another outbreak which will require another round of Tylan. Only way to get rid of it is to cull all of the rats and start over but no guarantees because most rats will also carry the bacteria.

Vet said that it would be OK to feed reptiles the rats that were infected. He also said the Tylan in the rats' system would not be an issue for the reptiles either and would not have a cumulative effect.

Office visit with medication came to $200 but I needed the consultation for peace of mind. The pet rats being medicated with Baytril and Doxy have no better chance of recovery or eliminating any reoccurence than the ones on Tylan. Save your money.

NEED HELP - Does anyone with LONG TERM (years) rat breeding experience have anything to add? Are your experiences different? Does the URI reoccur with any frequency or were you able to know it out? How? Anything else you could add would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[bokuza]

Once a rat falls to a bad URI it ussually happens again. The URIs im having are minor due to the chill in my rooms. My home doesnt have heating. \

Your vet isn't talking about mycoplasma is he?

[JohnNJ]

Once a rat falls to a bad URI it ussually happens again. The URIs im having are minor due to the chill in my rooms. My home doesnt have heating. \

Your vet isn't talking about mycoplasma is he?

Mycoplasma is the primary cause of URI and is present is most, if not all, rats. It stays dormant until the immune system is weakened by a variety of things like a chill in the room. Other reasons are genetics, old age, poor cleaning, ammonia build up, overcrowding, stress, overbreeding.

All cases of URI are minor initially but progress quickly and can go from sneezing to death in less than 24 hours. Rats hide their symptoms until it is too late to treat them.

Only lab rats initially born by cesearian in a sterile environment (myco resides in the female's genital area), and future generations kept that way. can they be guaranteed to not have mycoplasma. Once in the general population they will pick up the bacteria.

I'm guessing that if it is caught early and the rats survive through the course of antibiotics, the myco go backs in to a dormant state until the immune system is again compromised. Feeders and breeders typically aren't around very long so I'm guessing that a new flare up could be avoided with some good husbandry practices.

Again, the vet said neither the myco or the Tylan effects the reptiles so the rats can be used for food.

I know big breeders may be reluctant to share their experiences but I think it would be helpful for the community. Everyone should understand that myco flare ups are normal and do not effect the quality of the feeders produced.

Please PM me if you would rather not discuss it in public. Thanks.

[JohnNJ]

Did some more research. Myco is a form of URI but not all URI's are caused by Myco.

Here's the rub - all are treated the same way. If the URI returns (chronic) it is, most likely, Myco. URI or Myco can have secondary infections leading to serious illness and death. Calling it a URI may make some feel better but it's the same basic result.

The plan seems to be to treat everyone. Cull the really sick and their immediate tubmates including any babies. Clean and disinfect everything. Replace the breeders you lose.

No one is posting their experiences here and I have not received anything privately. I presume no one is disputing anything I posted.

[aldebono]

I also understood about the myco, URI part.

What I am trying to grasp is why cull all tub mates? Are we assuming that because they are not getting better that it is something worse than myco that has caused the URI and to prevent the bacterial/viral infection from spreading farther, you need to cull? This is what I am assuming and it makes sense.

Maybe in my stage of my colony, culling multiple tubs would be completely devastating to my production. But then it would benefit my colony in the long run.

And now I am just thinking out loud. Let me know if my ramblings are correct.

There is mycoplasma and then there are other contagious bacteria/viruses that is not myco that can present the same symptoms as myco. No cure for any of the above, but to reduce risk, cull and rebuild with healthy stock to keep the miscellaneous bacteria/virus out.

[JohnNJ]

I also understood about the myco, URI part.

What I am trying to grasp is why cull all tub mates? Are we assuming that because they are not getting better that it is something worse than myco that has caused the URI and to prevent the bacterial/viral infection from spreading farther, you need to cull? This is what I am assuming and it makes sense.

Maybe in my stage of my colony, culling multiple tubs would be completely devastating to my production. But then it would benefit my colony in the long run.

And now I am just thinking out loud. Let me know if my ramblings are correct.

There is mycoplasma and then there are other contagious bacteria/viruses that is not myco that can present the same symptoms as myco. No cure for any of the above, but to reduce risk, cull and rebuild with healthy stock to keep the miscellaneous bacteria/virus out.

Culling is for the overall health of the colony. Could you save the tubmates? Maybe but with lots of effort and it's not worth it to me.

I have already put down a bunch of breeders that showed no signs of illness. I would rather take the hit now and hopefully get it done. I scrubbed and sanitized everything including throwing out all of the lab block. My hands are raw but you could perform surgery in there.

Right now the remaining breeders all seem fine. No sneezing, everyone eating and drinking well, babies are fat. I think I'm over the hump.

BTW, the pet rats on Baytril and Doxy are doing well also.

[aldebono]

I guess what got me caught up is "culling". I automatically imagined killed and thrown out. Freezing and feeding is different, but I hate to throw out a good meal. I hate to waste anything. Couldn't you have microwaved the lab block or baked it at a certain temp/time to sanitize it?

I am glad your pet rats are doing well. We have one that I would probably go above and beyond for. Some of them are special.

Off Topic.. Then you get some that eat their babies like its Halloween candy and you don't feel so bad anymore!

[JohnNJ]

I guess what got me caught up is "culling". I automatically imagined killed and thrown out. Freezing and feeding is different, but I hate to throw out a good meal. I hate to waste anything.

Couldn't you have microwaved the lab block or baked it at a certain temp/time to sanitize it?

Could I have done something to save the 50lbs of lab block? Maybe, but not worth the risk.

I only froze the normal rats that I culled.

I threw out any rat that died on it's own and any rat that looked ill.

[reptilegirl07]

Coming in late, but thinking out loud....

If you culled rats that were sick, not horribly sick yet, but sick none the less, or around those who were sick, and you go to your freezer to thaw them out and feed them off, can't you run the risk of re-introduce the bacteria?

Freezing slows the bacteria growth down, doesn't eliminate it. It will still be present on your rats when you take them out and thaw them.

[JohnNJ]

A key point I made is that all rats already carry the bacteria. That includes rats from private breeders, pet stores, online frozen dealers.

I didn't cull to eliminate the bacteria. I did it to reduce the suffering and reduce my work going forward.

Rats hide their symptoms so by the time you see that they're ill they are pretty far along. URI's cause lung damage and scaring which leaves them open to another round of problems. I simply improved my odds by removing tubmates of visibly ill rats.

The vet assured me that the rats are fine for reptiles. He is taking some for his snakes.