Attention breeders in Florida...

[anatess]

P.S.

A lot of you is saying, better safe than sorry - just pay the $50 and be done with it. I'm not a breeder. I don't need a permit. But, I can't just let that one go. Because, if you let a $50 thing go, what happens if they up it to $5,000/year?

I can't just easily hand over hard-earned money like that when the people didn't vote on it. That goes with any fees, taxes, fines, or anything else.

I will give you an example - the guy who fixes my air conditioner has not paid federal income taxes for almost 20 years. He has a small business fixing air conditioners. He could not find in Federal Law where it specifies that he has to pay income taxes so he sent a letter to the IRS asking them to tell him how much he owes in taxes and what law supports the claim. The IRS put a lien on his business and his personal home. He went to court, showed the judge his bank account balance, held a pen and a blank check, and then asked the judge - tell me what I owe and show me the law that supports it. Guess what - the judge let him go. The never took the lein off his house so he sued the IRS... faced the same judge and the judge not only freed his business and his house, he awarded him $20,000 for mistaken lein or some such. This happened 2 more times. It's now almost 20 years and the IRS still did not provide him with how much he owes and the law that supports such a claim. So, for almost 20 years, he hasn't paid a single dime of federal income tax.

And guess what - he never questioned that he owed taxes. All he was asking is for them to show him the law that requires him - as a small-time air-conditioner repair guy - to pay income taxes. Until today, he puts money in a money market account every year waiting for the IRS to tell him to pay the taxes... when he dies, that money is going to his children complete with interest.

I'm not saying we should all do this. All I'm saying is - do not just hand over to the government your hard-earned money without making sure you owe it to them - unless you just want to freely donate it to the government or something...

[Aes_Sidhe]

Florida requires permits for wildlife possession, exhibition and sale.

Commercial and private facilities must have permits for many types of native and nonnative animals - including potentially dangerous animals, such as Florida black bears and Florida panthers. These facilities include zoos, circuses, alligator farms, pet shops, tropical fish farms and individuals who own a class I, II or III animal (see wildlife categories below).

A permit is required for personal possession, exhibition and sale of Class III wildlife.

Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

Yes after reading this point You can assume that You dont need any permit for ball pythons because as listed in 68A-6.0022 ball python falls in category
(a) Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected)

But key words in regulation 68A-6.0022 are:

(2) No permit shall be required to possess the following wildlife for personal use, unless possession of a species is otherwise regulated by other rules of the Commission:

There is no word about sale or exhibition!!!!

So there for : YOU DON'T NEED PERMIT TO POSSES (a) Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected) with is ball python...

When You go to application section:
http://myfwc.com/license/wildlife/ca.../applications/

You have 2:
Class III, No-cost Personal Pet Permit
Class III, for Exhibition or Public Sale

YOU NEED PERMIT FOR SALE Ball python and because Ball Python is not listed specifically as a specie in Category I or Category II list... fall to Category III automatically.... FOR SALE...and is exclude from that category for personal possession by rule 68A-6.0022

IF YOU CANT UNDERSTAND THAT.... Sorry....Really even Dr.House cant help You...

For people selling Feeders.... good news: rules 68A-6.0022 state that:

(3) No permit shall be required for the sale of poultry, hamsters, guinea pigs, domestic rats and [/I]mice, gerbils, or chameleons (Anolis).

So yea You can sell this stuff without permit but..... if You want sell beta fish or parakeet You need CLASS III permit

Edit: That's my last post in this discussion i feel tired of repeating myself...

To every Florida breeder:
Go get Your Class III permit and lets hope those idiots in Your state don't put more regulations on your heads... Good luck in Your future breeding projects

[Raptor]

So wait. People in florida need permits to be able to sell livestock O.o

[anatess]

Sorry Aes_Sidhe, you are still not getting me. You are repeating yourself because you are not trying to understand what I'M saying. You just keep on insisting on what YOU'RE saying!

The issue ends here:
Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

It doesn't go beyond that.

"CLASS III WILDLIFE ARE" makes that paragraph a DEFINITION statement not an ACTION statement. Translated to plain English it means - if your animal is NOT listed in Class I, Class II, OR 68A-6.0022, it IS a Class III wildlife. If your animal IS listed in CLASS I, CLASS II, OR 68A-6.0022, it IS NOT a Class III wildlife. That paragraph has nothing to do with what you CAN DO with a Class III Wildlife.

If that's not the intent of that code, then they need to reword that code and resubmit it to Congress.

[anatess]

So wait. People in florida need permits to be able to sell livestock O.o

No. The administrative code in question only covers WILDLIFE. It doesn't cover livestock nor domesticated animals like dogs and cats. There's a different code for that.

[Raptor]

No. The administrative code in question only covers WILDLIFE. It doesn't cover livestock nor domesticated animals like dogs and cats. There's a different code for that.

Considering how Florida is trying to limit everything..I'm just happy that I live in a lax state.

[sgath92]

[SIZE="2"]Class III wildlife are all species:

-not listed as Class I
-not listed as Class II
-not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

That would mean that they are not Class III. They don't meet the definition of class III because no permit is required for the personal possession of them. By the letter of this regulation FWC is ignoring the law & making it up as they go. They'll keep getting away with it too, until someone takes them before a judge over it.

However it would be risky for someone to refuse to get licensed before taking them to court. If someone is serious about actually going before a judge on this they really should get the license in case the judge rules against you [bad rulings happen so its better to be prepared]. If the judges rules against FWC you'd be able to get your $50 back. The last thing you want is to have a judge rule against you and have FWC waiting at your car with handcuffs because you still aren't licensed.

Bureaucrats regularly interpret laws in their "own special way" and you either have to put up with it or find a way to bring them before a judge. Not everyone has the time & means to do that though. For a lot of people it makes more sense to simply go along with it.

I have a story like this from NH a few years ago. See in NH every car is required by law to have a muffler. This is actually spelled out in their statutes [it's not a well written law and does not have any exclusions for say; antique cars or all electric cars but we'll ignore that for this post since it's not relevant]. A separate statute spells out what the legal definition of a muffler is.

In NH in order for a muffler to be considered a legal muffler it must use either bellow disks or chambers and cannot be a "straight through" design like some glasspacks are. So if you try to get a car inspected with a supertrapp [a straight glass pack design with bellow disks at the end of it] the inspectors will look at it, wonder if it is legal, and call in the police for a final say. In NH there is a special branch of the state police called the DOT police who enforce vehicular regulations [like window tint and emissions] and they're the ones shops have to ultimately answer to if they pass a car that's not street legal. A shop can lose its ability to inspect cars if the DOT decides they're breaking the law too much and they will randomly go into a shop to check their books to see how often they fail cars & why. If they don't see enough fails that raises red flags and makes them question whether the shop is passing some cars illegally.

Anyhow; by the letter of the law the supertrapp design is legal because it uses bellow disks. But the DOT police, who actually enforce this part of the law books, are undecided as to whether it's actually street legal. Some DOT police insist it's not street legal and some DOT police insist it is street legal. The shops don't want to loose their ability to inspect cars, so you can guess which side they listen to; and will not pass a car with a legal muffler when in doubt. I am sure if someone went before a judge they could have the DOT "corrected" on this but no one has yet pushed the issue because well, there just aren't enough people in that state who want to use that muffler who care enough to be bothered with the hassle & SEMA won't get involved because the DOT turn a blind eye to street rods & rat rods as long as they are older than a certain model year.

[anatess]

Sgath, you won't believe how much relieved I am that somebody actually understood what I was saying! For a while there, I thought I was speaking Martian!

[Aes_Sidhe]

Sorry Aes_Sidhe, you are still not getting me. You are repeating yourself because you are not trying to understand what I'M saying. You just keep on insisting on what YOU'RE saying!

The issue ends here:
Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

It doesn't go beyond that.

"CLASS III WILDLIFE ARE" makes that paragraph a DEFINITION statement not an ACTION statement. Translated to plain English it means - if your animal is NOT listed in Class I, Class II, OR 68A-6.0022, it IS a Class III wildlife. If your animal IS listed in CLASS I, CLASS II, OR 68A-6.0022, it IS NOT a Class III wildlife. That paragraph has nothing to do with what you CAN DO with a Class III Wildlife.

If that's not the intent of that code, then they need to reword that code and resubmit it to Congress.

*sighs* Yes i know that...
But my interpretation in a official FWC interpretation... and If You wanna fight with bureaucracy is Your choice...

If for example that rule will be stated like :
Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II. There are exceptions stated in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC. excluding certain species from having Class III permit for possession or sale.

Nobody will have problem with interpretation...

But tell me something...

Do You really wanna have situation when FWC Officer will knock to your door as you for a license and you will try explain to him glitch in legislation... ???

I can bet my ass on that he will force his interpretation lock you up and confiscate Your whole collection ?? Even if you hire a good lawyer.. and win in court... is really worthy whole stress not even yours but your animals??
And Good lawyer will cost you way more that 50$...

So Yes rewording that part of this particular law is necessary to avoid misinterpretation... but in the mean time I advise you to buy that Permit if you wanna sell you ball python... and then go to war with Florida Congress

Edit: and when You go for that war... think about close minded Florida politicians who wants all exotic animals banned from trade...
And if you dont have lobby similar to USARK backing you.... Ask yourself a Question : Is your war gonna do more good or more harm ??

[sgath92]

Sgath, you won't believe how much relieved I am that somebody actually understood what I was saying! For a while there, I thought I was speaking Martian!

I really really don't like the tax reference though, because if someone refused to get the license while the merits behind it are in litigation there'd be nothing to stop the FWC from going into your house, confiscating the whole operation, and euthanizing them before a ruling is made. Sure, you'd probably be able to go after the FWC for damages if the judge agrees with your case later on but it could potentially kill a lot of animals for no real reason and the claimant would basically have to start over from scratch. How many times have we seen local or state agencies walk out of someone's house with the entire operation [cages and all] after interpreting it as illegal? I remember a case from NY where the DEC raided a house and left with both the legally owned and illegally owned animals after accusing the residents of breaking the law.