Pine Bedding Bad for Rats?

[Krynn]

After reading more of the studies that have directly addressed the toxicity of pine I am actually leaning more towards the side that "Pine is perfectly fine to use for rodents". Ill give my reasons in a tick.

I did want to say that it is driving me nuts to see the reasons why people are completely discarding these studies. You guys are claiming that these studies are not reputable, yet quite a number of them are coming from peer reviewed journals. I personally cannot think of a more "reputable" source then this so i am still curious as to what you guys consider reputable.

Reptilegirl07: no these studies are not conducted over the course of "weeks, if that long" or they would be ripped apart in the peer evaluation process. If you read the studies you will find they tend to average between 4 and 8 months. Even if you guys are completely on the opposite side of this argument, take the time to read these studies before you discard them.

Is there a bias to these studies? Yes, but likely not in the way you are thinking. These scientists arnt working for Carefresh trying to make you stop using pine for your pets, like some people seem to be insinuating. These guys are SCIENTISTS giving information to other SCIENTISTS doing research on pine beddings. Keep in mind that hundreds of thousands of rodents are being used each year for scientific studies. If you are doing any sort of pharmacological, or physiological testing on rodents, and their enzymes are changing in response to their bedding, this is no longer a controlled study! This is why these studies are done, and this is the context that they are done.

Also keep in mind that there seems to be a bit of debate in the scientific community as well on the subject, as here is a paper claiming that there are no differences in overall health between mice house on carefresh, pine, or even cedar!:
Becker C.E., Mathur C.F., Rehnberg B.G.2010.The Effects of Chronic Exposure to Common Bedding Materials on the Metabolic Rate and Overall Health of Male CD-1 Mice. Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science. 13:46-55.

So like i said, i am starting to lean towards the "Pine is ok" side now. One thing that i would keep in mind however, is that if you medicate your rats, take them off the pine for a while first!

Side note (rant):

Claiming that something is alright because "we have been doing it for years with no problem" isnt great evidence either (although it may be good enough reason for you to continue doing something yourself). In educational teaching labs 25-40 years ago we used alot of carcinogenic compounds without gloves, or fume hoods with no "ill effects". Years later it was determined that alot of these compound have a very high cancer risk associated with them. I know this example doesnt really relate to this example, but i think it illustrates the point. Not all ill effects are visual.

Hope i didnt piss to many of you off with my ranting, but i felt it needed to be done .

[jasbus]

Dude, we're talking about rats here.
for snake food.

[Krynn]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Rhasputin]

Krynn, I think your post is the most clearly and logically thought out that I've heard. Thank you for sharing your view.

Jasbus, even though it's snake food, it's still a living animal, and it's health should be a concern no matter what you're doing with it.

[jasbus]

Well, you make it sound like people that use pine don't care about their animals...
Geez, the original question was:
Is it alright to use pine?

In my opinion, yes, I've never lost a rat due to a RI using pine. Much less ever had a rat with a RI...
If you guys want to take this to a weird level of cancer and what happens over a period of time to a liver given a certain study in some lab half way across the world, then so be it.
If you want the opinion of a breeder/pet lover/pet store owner, then I just gave it. To tell me that I don't care for my animals is just childish. Even though they are being used as food, they get a quality life on some of the best diet, in clean cages. In a building that probably costs more than your entire collection, that's just the building.... Exhaust fans, heaters, A/C, complete climate control, including humidity. All of this for animals that according to the USDA don't even fall under the animal cruelty act. Ask my USDA inspector what he thinks of my setup...He doesn't even need to look at them, because they are not considered a "pet" animal according to them, but he's always checking out my setups for all my animals because he knows that I do it right.
I use CO2 to euthanize, not a stick and a broken neck.
I keep my animals in the best of conditions, I just spent $100 on a friggin breeder male rat at the vet. Guess what, I could of easily fed him off, but he will spend the rest of his life as my kid's pet.
So, in short, get off your high horse, and stop with the footnotes and independent studies... There are plenty of people who raise breeders on pine, like myself, for decades and never had a problem with it.
SO, YES, PINE IS FINE.

[Rhasputin]

Jasbus this quote from you, "Dude, we're talking about rats here. for snake food." made it seem like you didn't care about the facts.


Nobody's on a high horse, especially not me. I just bought some pine. . .

[jasbus]

Well I apologize for the rant, but it just gets so old when people assume things.
Yes, we breed them for food. But it doesn't mean they should be tortured.
The whole point is/was, is it ok to use pine. Probably 99% of the breeders out there use pine, with no ill effects at all.
It just gets irritating when people use one thing to twist another.

[jasbus]

You know what the ironic thing is, in my case?
I just saved the life of a old geezer male breeder that my kids love(ok and me too) by spending tons of money and time on him, and I don't think twice about putting 50 rats in a death chamber. Sometimes you do need to remember that they are living beings....
How messed up is that?

[SlitherinSisters]

I've also been using it for years without issue.

[twh]

just for the record there is no such thing as "dust free" kiln dried pine or any other type of bedding commonly used for small animals.like saying ASFR's are "odor free" just not so.

in the past i have called numerous producers of pine bedding and they all have told me kiln drying reduces moisture content in the bedding to 4%-8%,so any phenols would have to be in that small %,bottom line is that there is no reason to use much more expensive bedding.low dust kiln dried pine is a good product for rodent bedding.cedar on the other hand is to be avoided at all cost.have fun.