Pine Bedding Bad for Rats?

[tomfromtheshade]

I have a few thousand rats on pine right now. They're doing a lot better than the ones in the freezer LOL. Personally, if they breed well, and live at least 64 weeks, I don't care what happens to their liver. I use kiln dried pine and I have only lost one adult rat in the last as long as I can remember and she died in child birth. I did find a rat pup dead the other day with a bunch of shavings in his mouth, but I'm betting that he was just retarded and tried to eat a bunch of bedding. It happens sometimes.

For the record, I have had ZERO problems with pine shavings. I use kiln dried pine shavings and they are cheap, plentiful, and have worked for me 100% of the time.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Pine has been shown to cause RI in rodents (and other animals) due to the release of aromatic carbon compounds (phenols and such).

Sure kiln dried pine may reduce the amount of phenols released by the bedding, so pine CAN be used without the occurance of RIs but why risk it?

From MY experience I have NEVER had any rats or mice with RI.

How long do I keep my animals (since apparently some people think it is relevant) well it depends

Female mice are retired after 5 litters, males are retired and replaced every 6 months.

Female rats are retired when the production drops below 5 babies, males are retired and replaced every 8 months.

Retirement has nothing to do with health issue it has to do with production because I am breeding for food those are not pets so once they no longer produce they are retired.

So again from MY experience never had any issue with either pine pellets or shaving but than again I only produce a few thousands rats a year which is not very much, if I did have issue I would consider alternative bedding but I don't have any issue and my colony is VERY healthy.

Now my question is how many rats have you raised on pine shaving and out of those how many have you had develop RI, and are you positive every single time it was due to the bedding.

[snakesRkewl]

I've yet to have a rat get sick on pine and I certainly would not place my pet rat stock on kiln dried pine if I thought it would harm them.

[PghBall]

Not disagreeing about kiln dried pine here. . . BUT. . .

i am curious how long mice actually stay in your possession, alive?

My oldest male breeder (purchased him back in the fall of 08 along with his brother) just passed about 2 weeks ago (old age). And I still have one of my original females I started my colony with. Both spent their entire lives on kiln dried pine. Both are/were well over 2 years old. But to answer your question, mice do not stay in my possession long dead or alive, unless you count the days the field mice sit in my garbage can after the trap snaps their necks. I only feed rats

[Bellabob]

Ok so the stuff I have is Premier Pet kiln dried softwood pine bedding. This is ok no?

[jasbus]

Ok so the stuff I have is Premier Pet kiln dried softwood pine bedding. This is ok no?

In my own personal experience....yes.

No references needed, just 20+ years of experience...

[Rhasputin]

My oldest male breeder (purchased him back in the fall of 08 along with his brother) just passed about 2 weeks ago (old age). And I still have one of my original females I started my colony with. Both spent their entire lives on kiln dried pine. Both are/were well over 2 years old. But to answer your question, mice do not stay in my possession long dead or alive, unless you count the days the field mice sit in my garbage can after the trap snaps their necks. I only feed rats

Okay. My only point being, I wish there was some comprehensive evidence on long term kiln dried dust free pine use and rodents. And there really isn't

I know people use the pellets, and consider that to be 100% safe, so I can only imagine that if the pellets are safe (being dried, baked, and dust free) then the treated shavings (dried, baked, dust free) would also be safe. . .

I feel like the negatives are not strong enough to rule out pine at the moment, for me. I'm about to run out of aspen, and if the feed store doesn't get the shipment of specialty aspen I'm hoping they will, then I'm going to get the kiln dried dust free horse pine, and see if there are any changes in my mousery. As of now, it has been MONTHS since my last URI in any of the rodents, and it was caused by cedar I sprinkled in to kill off mites.

So starting fresh, I hope to try pine, and see if I notice any differences in the way my mice live, and die.

[reptilegirl07]

Honestly, I think the experience of all the people here outweigh the supposed "scientific studies". We have people here who have kept rats and mice on pine for decades. These studies were probably conducted over the course of weeks, if that long.

I have always used pine. I have never had an issue with it.

I think there is plenty of sufficient research done to say that kiln dried pine is safe. The fact that people keep rodents on this bedding for decades and the fact that people can keep their rodents on it until they die of old age is sufficient. Rats don't live very long, what, around 2-3 years. Thus, if the rodents can live in pine for 2-3 years without issues, pine is safe.

I'm sure, on this forum, there is more combined knowledge on the subject than actual "scientific" studies.

[Rhasputin]

Reptilegirl whereas i agree with some of your points, your dismissal of scientific evidence is disturbing.


Untreated pine does have harmful side effects, and that was what the tests were based on. The evidence supporting pine, is all for treated pine, not un-treated.
Un-treated pine does in fact cause health issues in small mammals (comparable [since it's the same thing in a lower dose] to the effects of cedar on small mammals), which is why it is not used in laboratories (mainly the enzyme changes in the liver, which can effect the way an animal metabolizes medications, and reacts to testing).

[Rhasputin]

In my own personal experience....yes.

No references needed, just 20+ years of experience...

If the hypotheses about kiln dried pine being safe are true (I see very little, if any reason to avoid kiln dried dust free pine), then yes.

Please do keep an eye on your animals, and report back on how they are doing. The more information we can get from 'tests' the better we can understand this bedding feud!