New to asf, considering breeding

[jtman]

Hello everyone. I had no knowledge of ASFs until today. I went to the Taylor MI reptile show today and my usual guy for mice "forgot" to hold some for me so I was left empty handed. After some searching around there was one guy who had 6 very small ASFs for 50 cents apiece. I thought they were just some kind of "soft furred" mouse. I had no clue they were an altogether different species that's kinda between a mouse and rat.

First a little background. I only have a single BP. He is just a normal male and he's simply a pet. He is the most mild mannered and sweetest snake I have ever come across and my wife and I just love him like crazy. He is about 6 years old and on the small side. He tends to not want to eat rats. I typically get 8 retired breeder mice each month from the reptile show and feed him 2 a week.

I've always been interested in breeding. I know that typically breeding your own feeders for a single snake isn't recommended, but these ASF's have me intrigued. I hate the stink of mice, and like I said, my BP doesn't usually take rats. When I try rats he will usually refuse several weeks in a row until the rat is too big for him and then I am stuck with an animal I have no idea what to do with. That's a situation that I absolutely hate being in.

So from what I have gathered the ASFs are "in between" mice and rats and don't stink like crazy as mice are known for.

1. Is that an accurate assessment?

2. Since I only have 1 snake could I be successful with a 1.1 pair, or is 1.2 the absolute minimum?

3. I currently have them in my mouse holding bin which is 9x14 with the 1/4" hardware cloth as the lid. Do I need something larger? I don't care for glass as I have to lug them into the basement for cleaning. (my unfinished basement is way to cold in the winter here in Michigan to house them down there.)

4. Should I have two separate grow out tanks to keep males and females separated? It is my understanding that it takes 2-3 months for them to reach adult size.

5. I was thinking that I could try and sell excess stock on Craigslist or something. Has anyone else had success doing something like that?

This part of BP.net seems to be the most comprehensive source on ASF's I have found. And if there are any other factors I haven't considered please bring them to my attention. I will continue to dig through the threads here searching for more info. Thanks in advance for the help!

- JT

[Rhasputin]

A 1.1 pair might work just fine for a single ball python. You also do not have to separate males and females of any age. The males don't fight like male mice and rats do.

[Amon Ra Reptiles]

Ok so I have only been breeding ASFs for a few months and this is a really good source for info but I will try to answer some of your questions from my own personal experience.

As far as the stink, I don't recognize any smell at all. I change tubs once every two to three weeks or sometimes less and still haven't noticed any smell. Others have said they have noticed a smell with theirs but I have not.

As far as 1.1 I would recommend 2.2 or 2.3 and I say that for a couple reasons. First, they colonize really bad meaning if a male or female dies and you try to introduce a new one to your breeding group they will more often than not kill the new comer rather than accepting it thus making your breeding group useless (if it's your male). Second, these take quite a bit longer to reach size so starting off you may need a few extra.

As far as tub size maybe something a little bigger but not much. Also, a lot of people have problems with them chewing so glass may be better. I have mine in mortar tubs and havent had any chewing issues yet but I do give them wood and paper towel tubes for chewing.

As far as growing tubs I keep mine all together and haven't noticed any issues. It seems to be only once they are in the breeding groups that they are aggressive toward new comers.

Finally I can't help ya much on the selling excess as I have 11 snakes to feed and haven't had any overrun just yet. Freezing them is always an option.

On a side note, watch your fingers the little buggers are bitey sometimes especially moms with babies.

Hope this helps have fun and good luck!

[jtman]

Thanks for the responses! Perhaps I'll keep a larger group together to ensure that they are breeding ok. I'm happy to hear the smell issue is better. The worst part of keeping mice is the stink! Just a couple mice smell so much more than twice as many rats, its crazy.

Perhaps I'll keep an eye out for some 10g tanks on craigslist and freecycle. It sounds very appealing that I can let them grow out with their parents. I'm sure after I get some experience I'll figure something out that works for me.

I've noticed one of them has really crusty swollen eyes. It seems this is a fairly common thing with these guys. Is there anything I can do? I tried using warm water on a cotton ball to wipe his eyes, but he didn't tolerate that very well. Should I separate him? I don't think I can feed him off, hes smaller than a golf ball and it seems silly to feed that tiny little guy to a 1300g ball.

[anatess]

Thanks for the responses! Perhaps I'll keep a larger group together to ensure that they are breeding ok. I'm happy to hear the smell issue is better. The worst part of keeping mice is the stink! Just a couple mice smell so much more than twice as many rats, its crazy.

Perhaps I'll keep an eye out for some 10g tanks on craigslist and freecycle. It sounds very appealing that I can let them grow out with their parents. I'm sure after I get some experience I'll figure something out that works for me.

I've noticed one of them has really crusty swollen eyes. It seems this is a fairly common thing with these guys. Is there anything I can do? I tried using warm water on a cotton ball to wipe his eyes, but he didn't tolerate that very well. Should I separate him? I don't think I can feed him off, hes smaller than a golf ball and it seems silly to feed that tiny little guy to a 1300g ball.

I've bred ASFs since 2008.

For one snake, I suggest not to go more than 1.1. They produce an average of 12-15 rats every 3 weeks. This will be too much for a one-snake household.

Yes a 1.1 will be fine in a 9x14 box. They have an odor but it's not as stinky as mice.

Yes, they can't outgrow an adult ball python, so you can keep them as long as they live (they have a short lifespan of around 2-3 years).

They reach sexual maturity at around 12 weeks of age. I start separating them by gender at 8 weeks.

It is not easy to sell these things in craigslist or anywhere else. In my city of over a million people, there is only 1 guy who is successful at doing this. Everybody buys from him. If you find 1 regular customer, you're lucky. The reptile store that sells them, buys them for super cheap that it is not worth the effort of raising them unless you are a big business. You can try to find a fellow snake keeper and see if you can pool resources to raise rats for your snakes - like, you raise the rats, he buys food or stuff like that. This can get tricky.

This is what I suggest for a one-snake household:

Start by pairing all that is left of your ASFs into 1.1 groups. The first group to drop babies gets to be your breeding colony, the other group becomes feeders - separate them then. If they drop babies all at the same time, pick the colony you want, and leave the male in that colony, take the males out of the other groups while leaving the mom to nurse the babies. Note that the female rat can get pregnant on the same day that she drops babies!

Okay, it takes 12 weeks to get the rats to adult size (not sure how big your snake is) - you will have an average of 12-15 babies per litter. So, when the female drops a baby and you have more than 12 babies, separate the male immediately. This will make it so that you won't drop another litter in 3 weeks. Let the babies grow up with the mom. When they are 8 weeks old, take everybody out of the tub separate them by gender into 2 new tubs and leave 1 male and the mom in the breeding colony. They should start breeding and give you another litter within 3 weeks... that would be about 15 weeks from the last litter that you dropped giving you 12-15 adult ASFs for your snake every 15 weeks or so. Just keep doing this in cycles and you're set.

If your snake starts to go on a non-feeding mode and you start to get over-run by rats, you can hold off the next breeding by retiring your mama-breeder and separating all the genders. When the snake starts eating again, you can form a new breeding colony by putting together one virgin male and one virgin female from your collection.

Hope this helps!

[jtman]

Anatess: Wow thank you so much for the detailed response! Everything you said makes a lot of sense. I am glad to hear that I can make the 1.1 work. I didn't have my hopes up for selling anything, but I could at least give it a shot if it comes to it. Being careful and taking the father out when the mom drops to skip a cycle sounds like I could keep the stock at a manageable size. And, like ScottNBecky said, I could freeze any extras. I haven't had much luck feeding my BP frozen before, but I didn't try very hard and it was quite a long time ago.

I am working on a single, yet potentially problematic assumption and that is that I have a mixed gender sample. I haven't tried sexing them yet. Perhaps I should take a look into that. I recall finding a thread in here with some pictures so I'll have to find that one again.

Thanks again everyone. I've been away from BP.net for quite a while, and I'm very glad to see its still full of friendly and helpful people!

[Rhasputin]

ASFs smell like marijuana, after you don't clean their cage for a while.

[anatess]

Anatess: Wow thank you so much for the detailed response! Everything you said makes a lot of sense. I am glad to hear that I can make the 1.1 work. I didn't have my hopes up for selling anything, but I could at least give it a shot if it comes to it. Being careful and taking the father out when the mom drops to skip a cycle sounds like I could keep the stock at a manageable size. And, like ScottNBecky said, I could freeze any extras. I haven't had much luck feeding my BP frozen before, but I didn't try very hard and it was quite a long time ago.

I am working on a single, yet potentially problematic assumption and that is that I have a mixed gender sample. I haven't tried sexing them yet. Perhaps I should take a look into that. I recall finding a thread in here with some pictures so I'll have to find that one again.

Thanks again everyone. I've been away from BP.net for quite a while, and I'm very glad to see its still full of friendly and helpful people!

You can tell the gender of the rat by the distance between the anus and the genital. A female rat shows a much shorter distance between the two than what you would see in a male rat.

[jtman]

ASFs smell like marijuana, after you don't clean their cage for a while.

HA HA HA! Thats fine by me

yeah, I found the sticky post with the pictures I'll have a look at them this evening.

[anatess]

P.S.
Just some things to remember:
1.) You can't put a new adult rat in an established colony without a fight going on... that includes a rat that has grown up with the colony, moved out for some time, then put back in. Therefore, when you need a male to breed with the breeder female, you will need the male to grow up in the colony without it being separated at all. Otherwise, you will need to have to start a new colony from virgin stock.
2.) A breeder is past its prime at about 18 months old. You will notice a drop in litter-size around this time. So, you might want to start a new colony a few months ahead of time.