Thoughts on Ralph Davis' newest controversial youtube video?

[Foschi Exotic Serpents]

I give Ralph props all the way. A point I made on his FB page was that most vets, even exotic vets, will never encounter this issue. The breeders like RD who have been keeping snakes for many years and hundreds upon hundreds of snakes at that, are much more experienced than a vet in my opinion..

The only way you would get that kind of expertise anywhere else would be the exotics vets that work for large zoos like The Australia Zoo that Steve Irwins family owns. The average person will never have a vet like that nearby or the $$ to afford it if there was one.

Sterility? We don't know if he sterilized beforehand but I highly doubt he went into this with dirty hands. That is just common sense. Ive known for many years thanks to Steve Irwin that reptiles should never be put under anesthesia.

Al in all, RD did an amazing job and I see absolutely nothing wrong with what he did. Under the circumstances it was most likely the only option anyone would have had.

[loxocemus]

i cant add to the many posts on this except in rgds to the yolk "sac" which if it wasn't for his child he would have stuffed back in, his comments that it would have been digested aren't accurate, if its not inside the stomach/intestinal system it would have started to decay and not digest, or fallen off externally under normal conditions, if it wasn't for the child and the yolk tissue remains were re inserted i believe given the poor hygiene the outcome may have been very different.

he says he has encountered one of these situations once a year, if that, he also says he has done the procedure many many times, u cant have both.

rgds
ed

[muddoc]

Muddoc, while I am truly sorry the vet didn't agree to do the surgery, do you understand there is a reason WHY he refused to give you a suture kit? Because you are not QUALIFIED nor TRAINED to do surgery. If it were that easy, sterile sutures kits would be available in the local pet store or CVS!

If you had a dog that you felt needed surgery and the vet declined due to the fact the surgery may not work or the dog could suffer more, would you take the dog home and do it yourself?

Even if snakes do not feel pain in the sense that we do, I am willing to bet the feel something. There was a gentleman here who posted of a snake being chewed by a mouse left in the cage. Just about EVERYONE stated this guy should have taken the snake to the vet and some were pretty nasty in how they said it. How is THIS any different? Just because the guy breeds them? He is STILL not a vet!

Again, just because this proceedure done the way he did it worked doesn't make it right. Even if it worked out well 9 of 10 times, the one time that a snake gets an infection due to lack of sterility and proper techniques by someone following his video is one time to many. And thus, irresponsible to show it.

Muddoc, you say this happened to you this past Sat. I truly truly wish you and your snake all the best! However, if you find that tomorrow this snake has a very bad life threating infection, would you STILL agree that what he did was right in HOW he did it ( I am NOT arguing that the snake should not have been saved, just saved by a qualified vet)?

Please keep us updated on your snakes progress and please post pics as well of your sutures on him/her.

Actually the reason the Vet would not sell me a Suture Kit, was because there is always a chance that I am housing a fugative that is injured, and I am trying to aide him in his evasion from the law. That is the actual reason. It has nothing to do with the fact that I am or am not trained in using a Suture Kit, which at this point I am still unsure how you know if I am or not. Lastly, while Suture Kits are not available at CVS, they are readily available at most "Feed" stores and are not regulated.

p.s. I have since obtained 2 suture kits, in the event that I need to use one again with no chance of getting help.

In regards to your last question, I have attached a link to the story of my similar situation. It did not happen this Saturday, I just said on a Saturday. This actually happened to me over 3 years ago. I will preface by saying that I was not wearing gloves in my photos either, and I will not defend myself against it. I was clean and sterilized everythig as best as I could. The snake did not get an infection, and I am glad I could intervene when I had the chence.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ighlight=Grace

I am not saying that I don't understand your argument, nor am I saying I disagree. However, this industry was almost completely underground not that long ago, and the sharing of knowledge is what helped many of the older herpers to keep their animals healthy, alive and thriving in capitivity.

I agree. And with the farm stories, while you weren't a vet, you had the experience. I think Brokn's concern is more that the INEXPERIENCED herper would attempt this, not having the knowledge necessary to handle the situation. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but that was how I understood his posts.

Once again, I am not trying to be argumentative, but how do you think the EXPERIENCED herper got experience. Somewhere along the line, the best surgeon in the world performed surgery for the first time. One only gains experience in one way: by doing. I am not condoning the practice of advanced husbrandry to someone that is not comfortable with what they are doing, but if you think you can be successful at something new, I say give it a shot, as it will always be an experiece builder.

[Freakie_frog]

I personally have a really good reptile vet however there are times that things come up that I have delt with that a vet will not have the first bit of experience dealing with. There are some situations that a vet is needed due to the extent of the procedure required, things like a twisted ova-duct inside the animal, or other major trama.

I think Ralph did a bang up job of patching that little girl up. This type of thing isn't going to be done by the average keeper. Why do you ask, the average keeper isn't seeing fresh out of the egg babies, and even the hobbiest breeder isn't likely to see some thing like this.

For those asking if Tim, Ralph, Me, or any one is qualified or trained to sew up a snake I pose a question. Are you a trained chef? I only ask because most feel perfectly comfortable preparing food for themselves and their family. A task that if done wrong carries the risk of infection of the bacterial, and wrommy kind that can kill or harm people. If stored or prepared improperly food is extremely dangerous and yet most people have no reservations jumping in the kitchen and whipping up whatever Alton Brown just made. They do so with no training or schooling and never give it a second thought We pick out our own meat and yet have no formal training by the USDA on what to look for when spotting spoiled or contaminated meats or Veg. So before people start jumping all over Ralph for not being trained I suggest they look at their day to day activities that they engage in like treating themselves or other for illnesses with OTC meds you're neither trained or licensed (required by all states) to dignose or treat any illness and yet we do it all the time, simply home repairs ect ect..there is a time for the professionals to step in but when that is needs to depend on the person who owns the animal.

Also there is another option if they feel comfortable doing this so be it, I've personally had baby snakes die in my hands from far less. If this happens to you and you feel like this is something a vet needs to treat, load it up, have it anesthetized, sewn up, treated with antibiotics, leave a fresh hatched snake with your vet or take it home, then in a few weeks take it back to the vet and have the stitches removed..Bravo..Me I'm going not stress my new born animals out that much. I'm going to wash my hands, poke organs back in the body cavity, throw in a couple of stitches, and set the baby up on moist paper towel. Is it for every one most surly not but neither is bungee jumping, or body mods but I'm not going to sit in judgement of some one with decades more experience than me on a topic that I have no first hand experience with and demand they cease and desist..

[mpkeelee]

ralph did a good job, if i had his experience i would have done the same thing. for him with all those crazy morphs a poss het pied is prolly nothing to him, and he still took the time to give it the attention and sew it back up.

[hoax]

I have not read a single response in this thread. All I have to say is Ralph has plenty of experience keeping snakes and is responsible enough (I assume since he is prominent and successful) to care for this animal in a professional fashion. If he is going to take the time to care for the animal don't you think he most likely took the time to use clean tools? Maybe he should not have used thread and maybe he should have worn gloves. A good hand scrubbing with antibacterial soap is just as good as wearing gloves. People get so myopic that they cant open their mind and use logic to figure out a situation, in my opinion that makes a person sound as dumb as a person who really is. Not trying to offend any one but if you think Ralph just going to pick up a needle and thread out of the "snake surgery drawer" and use dirty hands to close up an open wound then you are pretty stupid.

Mike

[stratus_020202]

My thoughts? Ralph did an excellent job!

In case some of you missed it, the insides where hanging out. Just FYI. You have no idea how far his vet is, what the weather is like (it's Maryland by the way). And, yet you insist he should let the snake wait while he prepares a tub for transport, takes it outside (not sure how that's more sterile, but to each their own), a bumpy car ride to the vets. That could take hours. Do you think those insides are going to wait until you get to the vets to dry? Or, I guess you think he should just moisten some towels for her to wait on. Yeah, so through all this stress now the tub has to be opened every so often to moisten the towels to stay between too wet and too dry.

Sometimes the right decision is not the easiest to make. KUDOS Ralph on a job well done!

[ShortStack]

Once again, I am not trying to be argumentative, but how do you think the EXPERIENCED herper got experience. Somewhere along the line, the best surgeon in the world performed surgery for the first time. One only gains experience in one way: by doing. I am not condoning the practice of advanced husbrandry to someone that is not comfortable with what they are doing, but if you think you can be successful at something new, I say give it a shot, as it will always be an experiece builder.

I agree that to become experienced, you have to DO. There's a difference in just watching a video and thinking, "Dude, that's cool.. I can do that!" and doing it blindly so to speak, and taking the time to study the video and the way that he did the procedure. Like I said, it may look like he was just "stuffing guts" but there may have been some sort of rhyme or reason to it. I think before you can successfully do this you have to either really watch someone who knows what they're doing, talk to someone who knows what they're doing, and/or study and research on the internal organs(how to look for damage or other deformities, stuff like that). It is an experience builder in the right direction if someone has the right REASON for doing it. If they just wanna "play doctor" then it's a dangerous situation. If they want to educate themselves and save a snake responsibly, then go for it. I think in the end we have the same outlook on if someone should try this, because like you said.. Don't try it if you're not comfortable with it. I'm just worried that people will, even if they're not. Once again, he is not responsible for other people's actions, but I worry about the animals that may suffer because of people's carelessness.

I'm by no means criticizing what he did. He did an excellent job and saved the snake. He was very much experienced to handle the situation, and I applaud him for it.

[Herp Hugger]

I just watched the videos last night after learning about them in this thread. I was amazed at what I saw. If you're confident and comfortable with doing what needs to be done then go ahead and do it. If it happened to me, I would likely want to observe the procedure first hand so that I had the opportunity to ask questions, etc. but if I had to do it, I would.

Good Job RD!

[BroknBusted]

Thank you Tim and others for your response.

I would like to say my eyes have been opened to what you all have said. As I had said before, I have been in the medical field for over 20 years. I viewed that video in that mindset, which says HOW Ralph did that was a huge no no . While I think IDEALLY it is still better to use sterile technique, I understand that may not always be a viable option. Maybe, for people such as Tim and Ralph, it would be a good idea to keep sterile (not boxed) gloves on hand JUST for such cases as it is apparent they come up from time to time. JUST to limit any chance of the animal getting an infection on top of the inital problem.

I also never took into consideration the amount of experience that breeders such as Ralph have gained over the years. While I understand that farmers and the like deliver animals or geld horses, I think everyone can agree that this is a HUGE step from those kind of situations. It's is a situation I am THANKFUL I have never found myself in, as I am sure most on here are as well. But I at least now know there is a good chance that kind of thing can be recovered from with a great outcome, and for that I think the video, as well as Tim's post from above, provide a huge service.

Thanks all for respecting my input and providing yours without insult!

And I am glad you snake recovered as well Tim!