disappointed in the internet community, ending this rumor right now

[OhhWatALoser]

Ok, you cannot tell me I am the first one on this forum, to ask NERD directly (founders of the spider project) about the homozygous spider.... but yet time and time again, we are told that the homozygous spider is lethal, it doesn't exist, kevin told all of us.

100% WRONG

All i did was ask them, I believe my exact words were "Hey, since you guys are the founders of the spider project, what do you know about the homozygous spider being lethal?"

They told me that its a rumor that started around the time kevin started selling his spiders and never left and became "fact". They have never seen anything that suggests it. How can I be the first person to post this here? I've never seen this info here, and the whole homozygous spider thing seems to be fact around here.

then it gets better

then they tell me they have a suspected homozygous spider breeding, right now, has thrown all spiders in 2 clutches ( i didn't ask them how many eggs) and came from a breeding with both parents having spider in it. They believe it to be homozygous. could they of hit awesome odds? sure they could of, but sounds like the homozygous spider looks like a het spider, just like the pinstripe (ill get back to that one later)

and everyone says NERD is so secretive, sure about some of their new high end morphs, but not this. They don't hide the fact that they have a suspected homozygous spider, they don't hide the fact that being lethal is a stupid rumor. All I did was ask them. All the shows they go to and all the people on this forum that see them there.... and im the one to bring this to the forum?

im disappointed, this rumor went on for too long, and I feel bad for spreading it myself thinking it was fact like alot of us.

Only thing I can blame NERD about is I have emailed them about 3 times asking for information on the homozygous spider and never got a response.

More rumor dispelling....




That would be a living Pearl aka homozygous hidden gene woma. They need to do more breeding to figure it out 100%, but heres the facts. They did have alot of pearls that were screwed up. They are not sure what other morphs are in this snake. They are not sure if one of the other morphs reversed what was wrong with the pearls, or if outcrossing did it.

but I got to hold it, they are not keeping it a secret, in fact he pointed it out to me after I asked about the homozygous spider. but facts are living breathing 100% healthy homozygous HG woma.

and this just needed to be cleared up....

Now about the pinstripe. Brian from BHB (founder of the pinstripe project) will not directly say a homozygous form exists, But he did tell me the facts. he has a pinstripe that came from a breeding with both parents having pin in it. 27 eggs and he got 27 pins. my math says he has a 11098/1489548344729 chance or to round it 1/148,954,834...yes over a one in a hundred million chance of hitting the odds.... you be the judge. and yes it looks just like a het pinstripe.

so what do you guys make of that?

[RandyRemington]

Homozygous lethal is a possibility for any dominant type morph until proven differently. Homozygous lethal doesn’t necessarily mean anything bad about the heterozygous form just that you probably don’t want to breed them together.
Without a proven homozygous spider it would have been just as much a rumor to say that spider is dominant for years as to say it's homozygous lethal. It could turn out to be either. It would be very very hard to prove a homozygous lethal morph if the homozygous eggs never hatched. Even if a morph turns out to be dominant it's a matter of opinion how many babies it takes to prove that.
The BHB evidence that Pinstripe is dominant has been accepted for some time (2 years?). If NERD is getting close to that number with their potential homozygous spider and shares those numbers it will answer the legitimate question on spiders in most everyone’s mind. Even just hearing 2 clutches 2nd hand gets spider leaning more toward the dominant side for me than it has for years but without more info on the number of hatchlings or perhaps more hatchlings if it's low I certainly wouldn't consider it an answered question yet now 20 some years after the founding spider was imported.

Oh, and for what it's worth I might have started people considering the possibility of spider being homozygous lethal in an old post on kingsnake. I think Kevin started people considering the possibility that it's dominant on his web page. I don't really care either way I just want to know the answer already. It is what it is and don't think considering either possibility is less responsible than the other.

[Russ Lawson]

I could have swore I had a disagreement with someone on here before about the homozygous spider thing, but can't seem to find the post. I've never accepted the homozygous lethal thing though. Also, anytime you see someone list spider as a dominant mutation instead of incompletely dominant or co-dominant, they are implying they don't believe it is homozygous lethal either.

Also, very cool about that pearl. Did it seem to have any neurological issues, such as spider wobbling? I am curious because what I read about pearls suggested they normally had severe neurological problems that typically resulted in death. This one could be exceptional, or one of the other mutations in it may stop whatever is typically fatal in pearls alone. Regardless, cool little animal, and thanks for posting pics of it!

[OhhWatALoser]

Also, very cool about that pearl. Did it seem to have any neurological issues, such as spider wobbling? I am curious because what I read about pearls suggested they normally had severe neurological problems that typically resulted in death. This one could be exceptional, or one of the other mutations in it may stop whatever is typically fatal in pearls alone. Regardless, cool little animal, and thanks for posting pics of it!

Didn't have any neurological issue I could see at all, and I was looking for it. I didn't flip it on its back or anything, but no wooble at all. tongue was flickering and very alert. it was very curious snake lol. acted just like a normal ball python.

[OhhWatALoser]

Homozygous lethal is a possibility for any dominant type morph until proven differently. Homozygous lethal doesn’t necessarily mean anything bad about the heterozygous form just that you probably don’t want to breed them together.
Without a proven homozygous spider it would have been just as much a rumor to say that spider is dominant for years as to say it's homozygous lethal. It could turn out to be either. It would be very very hard to prove a homozygous lethal morph if the homozygous eggs never hatched. Even if a morph turns out to be dominant it's a matter of opinion how many babies it takes to prove that.
The BHB evidence that Pinstripe is dominant has been accepted for some time (2 years?). If NERD is getting close to that number with their potential homozygous spider and shares those numbers it will answer the legitimate question on spiders in most everyone’s mind. Even just hearing 2 clutches 2nd hand gets spider leaning more toward the dominant side for me than it has for years but without more info on the number of hatchlings or perhaps more hatchlings if it's low I certainly wouldn't consider it an answered question yet now 20 some years after the founding spider was imported.

Oh, and for what it's worth I might have started people considering the possibility of spider being homozygous lethal in an old post on kingsnake. I think Kevin started people considering the possibility that it's dominant on his web page. I don't really care either way I just want to know the answer already. It is what it is and don't think considering either possibility is less responsible than the other.

possibility is the key word, the "fact" on here was homozygous spider was lethal so don't breed em together. It should of been we just don't know yet, go ahead and try it, but be warned, we don't know.

and this information shouldn't be herd first coming from some random guy on the web, I think people should of asked them directly before I was even in this hobby, or atleast sometime before today. I was honestly shocked, and probably why I didn't think to ask them how many eggs there were so I could give a probability.

want the answer? go ask em, their not hiding it like people also liked to claim.

I could never get numbers for the pinstripes, now I got em. thought id throw em out there.

[alohareptiles]

Good information...Did you get it from Kevin at Tinley?

Yah, I don't ever expect a return e-mail or phone call from them...I gave up years ago, now I just admire their creations...

[Hilltop]

I never heard that it was a fact before, just that it was rumored to be letal, just as it was rumoured to be dom. maybe. IMO take nothing as "fact". Things are happening so fast, lips are tight, only option is to breed to prove, or read about it when someone else does its and feels like sharing. I beleive that the "superball" aka super spotnose was rumored lethal for a year or so also after the first one died, and I think that one was dropped. Rumors start, take it all with the preverbal grain of salt


chris

[dr del]

Um,

We have pointed out in several threads on the subject that nobody knows for sure if spider is homozygous lethal.

It's also mentioned that nobody has come forward with one - which is where the rumour comes from. There is also the rumour of pearls with something else mixed in surviving where as pearls from hidden gene womas on their own not thriving - but nobody has ever vounteered the information.

Don't be dissapointed in the reptile community - if you must be dissapointed in learning something new be dissapointed in the people that didn't come forward with a proven homozygous or the people who didn't read the threads right. **ducks**

Seriously not kidding - go re-read the threads.

I'm glad you got some answers from the source though - getting the skinny from the people best placed to know is always welcome.


dr del

[steveboos]

Um,

We have pointed out in several threads on the subject that nobody knows for sure if spider is homozygous lethal.

It's also mentioned that nobody has come forward with one - which is where the rumour comes from. There is also the rumour of pearls with something else mixed in surviving where as pearls from hidden gene womas on their own not thriving - but nobody has ever vounteered the information.

Don't be dissapointed in the reptile community - if you must be dissapointed in learning something new be dissapointed in the people that didn't come forward with a proven homozygous or the people who didn't read the threads right. **ducks**

Seriously not kidding - go re-read the threads.

I'm glad you got some answers from the source though - getting the skinny from the people best placed to know is always welcome.


dr del

^^^^^^^^^This exactly!!!!

[loonunit]

Honestly, I've never heard about the homozygous spider or homozygous pins being lethal, just difficult to tell from a single-gene snake. The pearl, though, never heard of one thriving--glad to see one that is.

(But that's a homozygous "hidden gene woma", right? That would be a completely different animal from a homozygous ordinary woma, correct?)