THAT is a hot spot

[annostic]

BTW, whats with the dog cage set up? Seems like a horrible way to house a monitor no?

an example of what is out there and how badly some people house and treat their monitors... and still refuse to listen to advice from others even scientific reports on the subject... and then wonder why the animal dies... the animal in the video did die... and the girl plans to get another one and still refuses advice.

I use her as a prime example when anyone cites something to be true based on "what's out there..." people like here are generally what is out there keeping V. exanthematicus which is why 99% of them die in the first year.

The other youtube expert I use is the girl who dresses her Savs up as super hero's...

[mumps]

I believe that the reason so many of these threads turn into debates, arguments and bashing is because they usually start out like this:

Noob: "I'm twelve and just bought a water monitor. It's in an aquarium with newspaper and I keep it at room temperature because we have no A/C. I feed it a fuzzy mouse once a week, when I feed my ball python. Am I doing everything okay?"

Experienced, Passionate Enthusiast: "No. You should......."

Noob: "That's not what the pet store guy told me; Piss off"

After over 30 years (almost 40 I'm afraid to admit) of keeping reptiles, I have had no reward greater than the keeping of varanids and teiids. They are on a whole other level from other herps; and I find other keepers who are serious to be equally as passionate and concerned as I am about these fascinating wonderful animals. We want all of them to thrive and be happy because they are so truly amazing.

If you haven't kept monitors, and kept them properly, you wouldn't understand what I'm saying. But for those who have and do, well, you can see them right here in this forum voicing their concern for the well being of these magnificent creatures.

Chris

[gbassett]

Sending them a PM of the other threads containing good info, maybe throw in a couple caresheets, and debate it out that way. Not trying to piss anyone off, just a thought.

Why would you want to keep it private?If the information was kept solely on pm any time you dont agree,no one would learn from there mistakes.There is so much bad info on Savannas its not funny.I here a lot of people trying to pass them off as beginner monitors and easy to care for,when in fact they are one of the more difficult monitors to care for.

Chris,that was very well said

Greg

[allergenic]

Well I sort of consider it a debate since some people try saying its good to have rodents in the diet and others are saying they think insects are what it should only eat.

As I said in the part of my last post you neglected to quote, it will become a debate when the "Boscs eat rodents" people publish their own statistics from their visits to Africa and observations on the Bosc diet. Until then, it's a really just a discussion of fact vs. fantasy/opinion.

I don't see the reason to fight over what is better to do and what is best for the monitor.

I'm going to agree with this one. Why are you arguing over something so stupid?

I haven't been on forums in a number of months, and just from a glance at the first page of posts on here since I've been gone, the majority of threads are "I have ___ kind of monitor and it's not drinking/not eating/listless/fat/sick/etc." The majority of that majority being threads about Savannah Monitors.

Reading those threads, the majority of responses are by people who either a) don't keep monitors or b) are suggesting more of the same ideas that got the animal sick in the first place.

While you may think it's "stupid", there are some people (myself included) who get tired of seeing the kind of pet industry-based advice that contributes to mountains upon mountains of dead monitors in any given year. So pardon if it seems that some get over-excited.

[Animals As Leaders]

As I said in the part of my last post you neglected to quote, it will become a debate when the "Boscs eat rodents" people publish their own statistics from their visits to Africa and observations on the Bosc diet. Until then, it's a really just a discussion of fact vs. fantasy/opinion.





I haven't been on forums in a number of months, and just from a glance at the first page of posts on here since I've been gone, the majority of threads are "I have ___ kind of monitor and it's not drinking/not eating/listless/fat/sick/etc." The majority of that majority being threads about Savannah Monitors.

Reading those threads, the majority of responses are by people who either a) don't keep monitors or b) are suggesting more of the same ideas that got the animal sick in the first place.

While you may think it's "stupid", there are some people (myself included) who get tired of seeing the kind of pet industry-based advice that contributes to mountains upon mountains of dead monitors in any given year. So pardon if it seems that some get over-excited.

I think its "stupid" because no one can learn when there being offended, and when you talk to someone in the wrong "tone", or whatever you would like to call it people tend to get a bad taste in their mouth and react. I completely understand why you get "excited" but do the community a favor and take it down a notch. Their are ways to teach people without being hostile, and negative. I know if I am trying to learn and someone calls me stupid, or makes me feel in anyway "offended" its hard for me to take them or their opinions seriously. Whether they are correct or not, I still would rather learn from a level headed individual then a know-it-all jamming facts down my throat and making me feel stupid for not knowing/understanding. This is how bad information remains in circulation. Who wants to believe/learn from a jerk? I know I don't. So next time you want to get "excited", do us all (monitors included) a favor and don't and take a deep breath cuz guess what? Your reaction just adds to the fire and just makes the fire bigger. Non-reaction is key in life, and staying calm and assertive is what gets the job done not "getting excited" and trying to jam information down peoples throats. Don't let your emotions get the best of you, truth is truth, and getting mad at people who are "unaware" is pointless.

Btw, this is NO way shape or form directed at allergenic.

[qiksilver]

It's hard to teach when people don't care to listen. There's a core group who've posted in this thread as well as pretty much ever other varanid thread and it's easy to see where there frustration comes from(although i think the info was given factually and without attitude at first). Especially when you have know it all's coming in and spouting useless and incorrect information in an obnoxious manner.

Besides each time is just slightly different enough that the point of the discussion/argument/attempt at teaching people is well worth the time and effort for the sake of the animals. Even if often it feels like banging your head repeatedly against a wall.

I think its "stupid" because no one can learn when there being offended, and when you talk to someone in the wrong "tone", or whatever you would like to call it people tend to get a bad taste in their mouth and react. I completely understand why you get "excited" but do the community a favor and take it down a notch. Their are ways to teach people without being hostile, and negative. I know if I am trying to learn and someone calls me stupid, or makes me feel in anyway "offended" its hard for me to take them or their opinions seriously. Whether they are correct or not, I still would rather learn from a level headed individual then a know-it-all jamming facts down my throat and making me feel stupid for not knowing/understanding. This is how bad information remains in circulation. Who wants to believe/learn from a jerk? I know I don't. So next time you want to get "excited", do us all (monitors included) a favor and don't and take a deep breath cuz guess what? Your reaction just adds to the fire and just makes the fire bigger. Non-reaction is key in life, and staying calm and assertive is what gets the job done not "getting excited" and trying to jam information down peoples throats. Don't let your emotions get the best of you, truth is truth, and getting mad at people who are "unaware" is pointless.

Btw, this is NO way shape or form directed at allergenic.

[Moofins07]

The only aspect I have yet to find pointed out in this debate is, is the "stomach contents" study necessarily conclusive? Sure, they had eaten mostly insects, but who's to say that was actually their prey of choice? Perhaps the rodent population for that particular area was low, and the monitors simply grabbed whatever was available to sustain themselves. If the rodents HAD been available to those monitors in the wild, I say the results would have been drastically different.

[qiksilver]

Averages would tend to correct for sparse populations of prey within a given area.

Also refer to Varanoid lizards of the World (2004) and it says they're foragers and eat mostly arthropods and molluscs.

The only aspect I have yet to find pointed out in this debate is, is the "stomach contents" study necessarily conclusive? Sure, they had eaten mostly insects, but who's to say that was actually their prey of choice? Perhaps the rodent population for that particular area was low, and the monitors simply grabbed whatever was available to sustain themselves. If the rodents HAD been available to those monitors in the wild, I say the results would have been drastically different.

[slayer]

The only aspect I have yet to find pointed out in this debate is, is the "stomach contents" study necessarily conclusive? Sure, they had eaten mostly insects, but who's to say that was actually their prey of choice? Perhaps the rodent population for that particular area was low, and the monitors simply grabbed whatever was available to sustain themselves. If the rodents HAD been available to those monitors in the wild, I say the results would have been drastically different.

.............................. I guess you didnt even read the study. Niles in the SAME COLLECTION AREA ate plenty of rodents yet the Savs did not.

From page 24
"We have analysed the stomach contents of 32 V. nilocticus. The prey are listed in table III. We
have ascertained that this species eats invertebrates like V. exanthematicus. But in addition it
takes vertebrate prey. Among the prey ingested, we have identified;
Fish - Protopterus annectens.
Bachtrians - frogs and toads
A turtle - Pelusios subniger.
Lizards - Agama agama, Mabuya and V. exanthematicus.
A bird of the genus Ploceus.
Murides...............(RODENTS)"

[h00blah]

that IS a hot spot