The Pine Debate

[Skiploder]

For many, many, many years I used kiln dried pine bedding for my snakes.

About 18 months ago, I got a line on Harlan Teklad Aspen and switched to that. Last week, that supply dried up and I've gone back to pine.

It's cheaper, absorbs crappage better and doesn't mold up as quickly. After going back to pine I decided that aspen plain sucks.

I was reflecting on all of the breeders and hobbyists I know that use pine. The East Bay Vivarium is an example - it's all they use for their snakes. While I don't want to "out" anyone in the great Pine Debate, some highly respected people in this hobby use it and have used it for decades.

Since the almighty internet has been up and running, I have read post after post after post condemning pine bedding as "toxic" and "harmful" to snakes. As much as this claim is made, there is no supporting evidence, no studies and no first hand accounts of how pine is detrimental to snakes.

Or is there?

Two of my oldest snakes spent the majority of their lives on pine - we're talking 15 to 20 year old animals. I kept so-called delicate species on it - even neonates with no ill-effects. Most old time herpers used it for years and continue to do so.

So this begas the question - all of you who claim pine is toxic to reptiles, let's get this out here and now. What is the basis of your claim? What study are your warnings based on? Remember, the effects of pine on naked mole rats, burrowing rectal beetles and horseshoe crabs doesn't count. We're talking specifically about reptiles here. And please, don't start quoting Melissa Kraplan. Nothing will render your arguments or viewpoints irrelevant quicker than using her as a basis for an informed opinion.

You also are not allowed to quote an unfounded post by a third party. It has to be an actual study with actual proof. And no relating pine to cedar - two different trees. No one disputes the toxicity or the irritant qualities of cedar.

It's okay if you can't cite a specific study. If you have first hand experience with the dangers of pine bedding - post them. Be careful though, proof that pine killed or shortened the lifespan of your animal is needed.

There are too many unfounded claims going around in the snake hobby. Let's first address the veracity of the popular cry that pine is harmful for reptiles.

Is it or isn't it harmful?

[tonkatoyman]

Sounds like you already have the answer. I have one question though. Have you in all these years found any scale or skin irritation due to the occasional rosin laden chip rubbing up against the animal?

[Skiploder]

Sounds like you already have the answer. I have one question though. Have you in all these years found any scale or skin irritation due to the occasional rosin laden chip rubbing up against the animal?

I don't have the answer. I'm one person with one opinion and one body of experience.

There are hundreds of people advising against the use of pine bedding - many of whom have never used it.

Maybe they know something I don't.

....and no - no cases of bedding-induced skin irritation.

[tonkatoyman]

I don't have the answer. I'm one person with one opinion and one body of experience.

There are hundreds of people advising against the use of pine bedding - many of whom have never used it.

Maybe they know something I don't.

....and no - no cases of bedding-induced skin irritation.

i know you are just one, but that is how it starts. One goes against conventional wisdom, then two and before you know it knowledge is gained. Adam Wysocky and I were talking one day. He told me that Ball Pythons were originally kept in huge containers. People were thought to be cruel if they did any different until one person noticed the animals kept in one corner of their environment...fast forward to today and we keep them in 41qt tubs with a hide and some localized heat...so I know you are just one...

[muddoc]

Skip,
Excellent post. While I have not been in the hobby as long as you (I only have about 8 years under my belt currently, in this run, I used to keep many years ago when I was younger, but don't really remember what substrate I was using, although I want to lean toward corn cob bedding), I have steered clear of pine due to the rumors out there. However, my beliefs are that the kiln drying process dehydrates the wood, and leaves any toxic compenents in a dry state. This does not allow them to get on the animal from rubbing on it.

With that said, I think if you were to use plain pine shavings, like we use for our rats, and have used the same shavings in our horse stalls and goat stall. These shavings are not kiln dried, nor are they processed in any way. They come fairly wet, and if not stored dry will mold and mildew rather quickly. I think if you were to use some form of pine shaving that has not been processed, the "wet sap" from the pine could potentially cause some skin issues. I think that the novice keeper is better suited to staying away from pine, unless they are very diligent about the quality of pine that they select for use.

Great post, and one for much discussion,

[Kaorte]

I personally don't use it and I probably never will simply because I don't like using loose bedding.

I really don't see much of a problem with the kiln dried pine, its the regular pine I would stay away from. A lot of newbies might not know the difference and buy the wrong thing so it is sometimes better to not even suggest it.

[Skiploder]

i know you are just one, but that is how it starts. One goes against conventional wisdom, then two and before you know it knowledge is gained. Adam Wysocky and I were talking one day. He told me that Ball Pythons were originally kept in huge containers. People were thought to be cruel if they did any different until one person noticed the animals kept in one corner of their environment...fast forward to today and we keep them in 41qt tubs with a hide and some localized heat...so I know you are just one...

I'm not sure what side is conventional wisdom in this debate - that pine is good or pine is bad.

I will throw this into the mix:

Jon and Owen at the EBV use pine.

Tim Spuckler uses it.

Brian Barczyk uses it.

I can go on and on.

So is the conventional wisdom the current internet majority opinion (pine bad) or the old (pine good)?

[tonkatoyman]

Based on the heated arguments I have seen on this forum, conventional wisdom is Pine Bad...

[Skiploder]

I personally don't use it and I probably never will simply because I don't like using loose bedding.

I personally don't like loose bedding either - but what I use for my snakes is a different matter.

[Skiploder]

Based on the heated arguments I have seen on this forum, conventional wisdom is Pine Bad...

I agree. Conventional wisdom is pine bad.

But, if BHB came on here and admitted using it, or Third Eye Herp, or someone of that stature, would the CW change?

Right now you have mean old Skippy and cantankerous Wilomn saying that back when they rode their velociraptors to school, pine bedding was all the rage - as was asbestos underwear and eating lead paint.

But would that change if a couple of people more palatable to the masses informed the forum they used it?

Methinks yes.