TOFFEE Ball PROVEN

[jsmorphs2]

More than happy too..



Baby Candy Image thanks to Pete Khal (Pete Khal reptiles)

Originally Posted by m00kfu View Post
Adult candy:

If these are both Candies dosen't this show the color change right here, plain as day? I can imagine with out much of a stretch (thanks to these pics) that these "albino" looking babies could go through this color change.

I'm looking forward to updates on these guys. Congrats!

[MarkieJ]

Looking at the pics from the original post, the eyes of these baby toffees are a darker red than an albinos. An albinos eyes are a light pink, whereas these are a ruby red. I hope my fellow BP.netters haven't scared you off of posting pictures as these stunners develop... Also why was the kingsnake thread deleted?

[AlanDavidExotics]

Congrats on producing the first Toffee!!! If this was Brians post (or Ralph, Tracy, Kevin, ects for that matter) and he produced the first baby Toffee I wonder how many people would say "he made a mistake", "those are regular albinos", "thats not a toffee" , or "candys look-like this so toffees must look-like that"... Not everyone on this forum are trying to scam, even the ADMIN/MODS are hinting the OP is lying or there must be some mistake...relax people these are ball people, that happen to change color while aging.

Remember MOST morphs dont look the same as adults!!! And I do mean MOST!!!

[AaronP]

Congrats on producing the first Toffee!!! If this was Brians post (or Ralph, Tracy, Kevin, ects for that matter) and he produced the first baby Toffee I wonder how many people would say "he made a mistake", "those are regular albinos", "thats not a toffee" , or "candys look-like this so toffees must look-like that".

In all do respect I do not believe Ralph, Tracey, Kevin or Barcyzk would post an animal that looks like an Albino and say:

"Look guys I proved out the Toffee!!!"

They'd probably see the eggs pip and go "...What the crap" and start checking their breeding records to make sure there wasn't a mistake, then they'd probably call a few people and after finding out no one else has had a successful clutch yet, they would likely wait and see and once/if the color begins to change to what you expect a toffee to look like then they MAY post their findings on the internet after being able to decisively say "This is a Toffee".

[JLC]

...even the ADMIN/MODS are hinting the OP is lying or there must be some mistake...relax people these are ball people, that happen to change color while aging.

Remember MOST morphs dont look the same as adults!!! And I do mean MOST!!!

PLEASE show me where either myself, or any other admin or mod hinted or implied that the OP is lying. YES, I did say there MAY be a mistake somewhere along the lines...but that in no way implies anything negative about the OP. Those seriously look like ordinary albinos to me, from the pictures provided...and I simply offered up a reasonable explanation about WHY they might look that way, without any attempt at deception on the part of the OP or the original seller of the hets.

And I am fully aware that newly hatched ball pythons can change as they grow...some morphs this is more dramatic than in others. But no where in the ball python world that I've seen so far has there ever been a case of a change as significant as what the OP is suggesting. The closest that I'm aware of might be the banana ball...where the babies are crazy-colored and then grow into somewhat dull looking adults....but even in that case, you can see the relationship between the baby and the adult. And I've never seen a case where the eye color changes.

While I can understand the frustration of those who are tired of the somewhat pessimistic response to the original pictures, I take offense at our words being so twisted and misconstrued.

[waltah!]

Congrats on producing the first Toffee!!! If this was Brians post (or Ralph, Tracy, Kevin, ects for that matter) and he produced the first baby Toffee I wonder how many people would say "he made a mistake", "those are regular albinos", "thats not a toffee" , or "candys look-like this so toffees must look-like that"... Not everyone on this forum are trying to scam, even the ADMIN/MODS are hinting the OP is lying or there must be some mistake...relax people these are ball people, that happen to change color while aging.

Remember MOST morphs dont look the same as adults!!! And I do mean MOST!!!

I don't recall anyone saying the OP was trying to "scam" anyone. Everyone gave their opinions one way or another. It seems odd to me that even Urban has not produced a toffee, but the folks who bought the hets are producing them. Maybe they've just had bad luck. Could be. If these don't prove to in fact be Toffees it may be time for some to accept the fact that it was just a really cool looking normal het carrying the albino genes, kind of like a paradox.
If these do prove to be Toffees then that's great! I would rather be wrong and see someone prove these out as the Toffee just may be my favorite looking snake.
Either way the OP has some great looking snakes there.
As far as the Candy being the same as Toffee, I don't think they look exactly the same, but are similar. Kinda like Cinnies and Black Pastels or Lessers and Butters. Just my opinion.

[AlanDavidExotics]

In all do respect I do not believe Ralph, Tracey, Kevin or Barcyzk would post an animal that looks like an Albino and say:

"Look guys I proved out the Toffee!!!"

They'd probably see the eggs pip and go "...What the crap" and start checking their breeding records to make sure there wasn't a mistake, then they'd probably call a few people and after finding out no one else has had a successful clutch yet, they would likely wait and see and once/if the color begins to change to what you expect a toffee to look like then they MAY post their findings on the internet after being able to decisively say "This is a Toffee".

How many of us (SMALL TIME BREEDERS) could wait a few months, watch the color change...then post... "Here is the first Toffee... Look how the color changes over time"... realistically most (including myself) cant.

Nobody (you, me, or the next breeder) wants to hear that their 'prize project' must be wrong by people who have no idea what they're talking about... A few weeks ago I was reading a post from some saying that Justin's Lavender babies are regular albinos, because they have no purple. Its easy to mistake a baby high contrast albino and a Lavender... How do you (not you in particular) know that baby toffees don't look like regular albinos?... Nobody has ever seen one!!! The Original Toffee was already its adult coloration when Craig received it.

[WingedWolfPsion]

If we assume that the brown/toffee color develops over time, it really does explain all of the differences. Perhaps some oxidizing effect?

For example, if the eyes are light red/pink now, and brown color develops over time, this color would darken the eyes along with the rest of the snake, producing the darker ruby red color seen in the older animal.

They do look just like albinos to me, too, but I'm listening to the folks who say there is a mutation in retics which may be similar, and the baby retics look like albinos when they hatch.

[rabernet]

Congrats on producing the first Toffee!!! If this was Brians post (or Ralph, Tracy, Kevin, ects for that matter) and he produced the first baby Toffee I wonder how many people would say "he made a mistake", "those are regular albinos", "thats not a toffee" , or "candys look-like this so toffees must look-like that"... Not everyone on this forum are trying to scam, even the ADMIN/MODS are hinting the OP is lying or there must be some mistake...relax people these are ball people, that happen to change color while aging.

Remember MOST morphs dont look the same as adults!!! And I do mean MOST!!!

I haven't participated in this thread until now, but I do want to comment on this. Why is it, that when a person's name is in red or green, they are suddenly not allowed to participate in a thread without having their position thrown up in their face?

I haven't seen a single staff member imply that the OP was lying about the history of those animals' parentage as he believes it, and to insinuate that they have is just low, in my opinion.

I don't know if people do it to get "cool points" for singling out the staff or what compels them to do so when they disagree with a staff member's individual OPINION and participation in a thread.

Disclaimer - the above rant is my own personal opinion and may or may not be shared by the rest of the staff. I speak only for myself and how I see things from my chair in GA.



To the OP - congrats on beautiful hatchlings - please do keep us updated with progression pictures as they mature!

[Freakie_frog]

How do you (not you in particular) know that baby toffees don't look like regular albinos?... Nobody has ever seen one!!! The Original Toffee was already its adult coloration when Craig received it.

I 100% totally agree we don't know what a baby look like. So the question remains how can the OP know with 100% unchanging certainty that what he produced is in fact a Toffee. Remember

Nobody has ever seen one!!

...

Lets see how it matures in say 2 months.. 6 months.. a year then lets see what it looks like if it completely changes color great I want a pair of visuals.