Culling Healthy Animals

[waltah!]

I make assumptions regarding mankind, not anyone here. Most of the folks here are like me, and care alot for their animals, and what happens to them when they leave our care. The problem is that when we tire of an animal, or can't use it anymore we sell it or give it away for the most part. This happens again, then again, especially with inexpensive animals. At some point in that chain, less valuable animals ussually met an untimely end for one reason or another. Reducing the number of them at hatching is good from every angle. The smaller footprint we have in the eyes of the folks who want to takeour snakes away, the better. The footprint I speak of is stories of released animals, and abused animals.

S~

You certainly have made assumptions about members here. Apparently we are liars who would not put our own pets ahead of a piece of electronics made in China.
You can of course do anything you like with your own animals, but you are truly inflexible when it comes to anyone else's ideals or opinions.
I can just see all of those little pythons in the eggs thinking to themselves "Man, I hope I make the cut!"

[ShawnC]

Ohhhhhh, now I get it.

YOU get to choose for all of us what we do.

I didn't say this. You are letting emotions get to you and you are loosing credibility with each post like this. I am telling you what I do to try and stem what I see as a problem, and would like to debate oposing opinions.

You have one point of view and do not see any other.

No, I see your point, and I want to debate with you about why I think mine approach is better for the hobby. Thats what debating is...putting forward opposite views, and backing them up with your thoughts and if you have them, facts. I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion. But if you postone, I get to rebute it.

I say yours is flawed and therefore invalid.

You love to say things like this. Your are not debating. You are saying things that make you sound profound, but they mean and prove nothing. The problem is your not saying anything to support your side of the arguement. Your letting your emotions rule your thoughts and you are posting things that show it. Just because you say my logic is flawed (and don't explain how or why mind you) does not make it so...LOL. Disagree with my posts, post your thoughts, but don't try to invalidate mine with a God Statement.

S~

[olstyn]

The point about high-value items getting better care has some weight in my experience, at least with material things. For example, how many pairs of crappy $10 sunglasses have you broken and not cared about? OTOH, I've got a pair of Oakleys that I've had for coming up on 13 years now. If they were crappy $10 sunglasses, I most likely would have lost or accidentally broken them by now, but because they cost me $145, I've taken good care of them and still have the original lens. Admittedly, it has a few scratches now, but all in all, it's in very good shape for a lens that's seen near-daily use for 13 years.

I think this behavior pattern breaks down somewhat with regard to animals, at least for those of us who feel an attachment to them, but I also know that there are many people out there who severely mistreat every type of animal, regardless of how "disposable" it may be. It's nigh-impossible for us to determine which of these two behavior patterns is prevalent in more people, especially given that most people would claim that they take good care of their animals, regardless of whether it's true.

With regard to the argument that reptiles are more "disposable" than "cute," furry animals, I wonder if I'm odd in thinking that reptiles are actually *less* disposable because they live longer and will therefore be in your life longer. Example: my leopard gecko may live to be > 20 years old (is the record still 28?), but most dogs and cats have a maximum lifespan of 10-15 years. BPs can live even longer (IIRC the record is 40+ years).

Especially because this discussion began with carpet pythons, I have to wonder what criteria the OP uses to determine which animals will be "ugly" in the first place. Carpets are variable and unpredictable in appearance; an ugly hatchling may be a beautiful adult and vice versa.

A further question for the OP: what percentage of your fish's meals are baby carpets? Your monitor's meals? (I assume that as a "large-scale" breeder, you keep feeding records for all of your animals.) If it's a high percentage, you might as well admit to yourself that part of your purpose in breeding carpets is to feed your other animals. I'm not necessarily condemning you for that if it's true, but it seems like it could be seen as a relevant point in the discussion by some.

[ShawnC]

You certainly have made assumptions about members here. Apparently we are liars who would not put our own pets ahead of a piece of electronics made in China.
You can of course do anything you like with your own animals, but you are truly inflexible when it comes to anyone else's ideals or opinions.
I can just see all of those little pythons in the eggs thinking to themselves "Man, I hope I make the cut!"

I never said you were liars. Not once. I also didnt' make the electronics analogy, one of your own did. I just re-used it to try and take the emotion away from the thought process to better explain my position. Its not very fair of guys to keep trying to make me look bad by putting words in my mouth, but it does prove one thing. You guys are too emotional about it, and it affects your judgement. If we were talking about bugs...you wouldn't have anything to say.

I'll say it again. This topic is emotionally driven, espcially since we are all snake nerds. I said this in my first post. If you try really hard to take the emotion out of it, and look at the points I am hitting over and over again, they make sense logically, even if it's a little uncomfortable because we are all snake people. We can help our hobby with a little self control on what animals we release, and in what numbers. Thats all.

S~

[wilomn]

I didn't say this. You are letting emotions get to you and you are loosing credibility with each post like this. I am telling you what I do to try and stem what I see as a problem, and would like to debate oposing opinions.



No, I see your point, and I want to debate with you about why I think mine approach is better for the hobby. Thats what debating is...putting forward opposite views, and backing them up with your thoughts and if you have them, facts. I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion. But if you postone, I get to rebute it.



You love to say things like this. Your are not debating. You are saying things that make you sound profound, but they mean and prove nothing. The problem is your not saying anything to support your side of the arguement. Your letting your emotions rule your thoughts and you are posting things that show it. Just because you say my logic is flawed (and don't explain how or why mind you) does not make it so...LOL. Disagree with my posts, post your thoughts, but don't try to invalidate mine with a God Statement.

S~

You have based everything you have said on assumptions.

I have no need to prove anything. I'm not the one trying to prove a point of view.

I can and do say that you are postulating as true what is not. That invalidates what you say.

The proof is in this thread. You have been disagreed with on almost every assumption you have put forth. You refuse to see any point of view other than your own, which is not debate but defense.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, don't care enough to put that much effort into it. Without putting effort into it though, I can see that your logic is flawed.

The proof of that is in this thread. Whether or not you acknowledge it is not my call to make.

[waltah!]

I never said you were liars. Not once. I also didnt' make the electronics analogy, one of your own did. I just re-used it to try and take the emotion away from the thought process to better explain my position. Its not very fair of guys to keep trying to make me look bad by putting words in my mouth, but it does prove one thing. You guys are too emotional about it, and it affects your judgement. If we were talking about bugs...you wouldn't have anything to say.

I'll say it again. This topic is emotionally driven, espcially since we are all snake nerds. I said this in my first post. If you try really hard to take the emotion out of it, and look at the points I am hitting over and over again, they make sense logically, even if it's a little uncomfortable because we are all snake people. We can help our hobby with a little self control on what animals we release, and in what numbers. Thats all.

S~

The original comparison was an Iphone to a calculator. YOU replaced the "disposable" calculator with a ball python. You called Robin a liar and mockingly called me one with the "that's just funny" reply regarding the above comparison.
Nobody has to put any words in your mouth to make you look bad. You are doing a mighty fine job of that all on your own. You keep saying to "take the emotion out of it". It's tough to do that when the subject matter is pets (bp's to be precise) on a site called ballpythons.net. Being unemotional about it is really not an option unless your main goal is just to have the biggest collection which any idiot with a credit card could accomplish.

[wilomn]

I never said you were liars. Not once. I also didnt' make the electronics analogy, one of your own did. I just re-used it to try and take the emotion away from the thought process to better explain my position. Its not very fair of guys to keep trying to make me look bad by putting words in my mouth, but it does prove one thing. You guys are too emotional about it, and it affects your judgement. If we were talking about bugs...you wouldn't have anything to say.

I'll say it again. This topic is emotionally driven, espcially since we are all snake nerds. I said this in my first post. If you try really hard to take the emotion out of it, and look at the points I am hitting over and over again, they make sense logically, even if it's a little uncomfortable because we are all snake people. We can help our hobby with a little self control on what animals we release, and in what numbers. Thats all.

S~

Let me just say this about this emotion thing you keep blaming those who rightfully disagree with you for using to much. First, that is yet ANOTHER assumption on your part.

You don't know me so I can't really blame you and in fact with most people it would be true, but with me, and I say this only because it is true, emotion has NOTHING to do with my posts or point of view.

[ShawnC]

Especially because this discussion began with carpet pythons, I have to wonder what criteria the OP uses to determine which animals will be "ugly" in the first place. Carpets are variable and unpredictable in appearance; an ugly hatchling may be a beautiful adult and vice versa.

A further question for the OP: what percentage of your fish's meals are baby carpets? Your monitor's meals? (I assume that as a "large-scale" breeder, you keep feeding records for all of your animals.) If it's a high percentage, you might as well admit to yourself that part of your purpose in breeding carpets is to feed your other animals. I'm not necessarily condemning you for that if it's true, but it seems like it could be seen as a relevant point in the discussion by some.

Excellent Post. Carpets are not that hard. You can get a good idea when they are little what they have the potential to be once you work with them a bit. Still, I don't just cull stuff right out of the egg. Sometimes it's six months down the road before i can tell it's not a great example of the type.

I am not a big breeder. Maybe 300 babies per year...thats not that many.

I maybe cull 15 or 20 animals per year. I am not feeding babies by the plateful. I am just making educated guesses as to what the likelyhood is of how this animal will look as an adult, and how likely it will be to find a true, long term home. If I have a Coastal/IJ/Jungle Cross...it's truely a mutt, so it had better be a good looking animal, or it has little chance of finding a place where it will spend it's day in comfort.

S~

[wilomn]

it had better be a good looking animal, or it has little chance of finding a place where it will spend it's day in comfort.

S~

And you know this how?

[Stewart_Reptiles]

If I have a Coastal/IJ/Jungle Cross...it's truely a mutt, so it had better be a good looking animal, or it has little chance of finding a place where it will spend it's day in comfort.

Says YOU?

And if so it's because you do not want to put in the work!

Then if so just quit breeding mutts............... problem solved!