Culling Healthy Animals

[ShawnC]

Do you have ANY data that backs up your claims? So, because someone paid nothing for one of my normal males, (but spent well over $100 in purchases to set up their animal), it's less likely to be properly cared for? I would almost be willing to take an infraction to call cow manure!

Someone a while ago used an excellent example. I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator? If you are running in the rain, which one do you care about getting wet the most? For MANY people, especially impulse buyers, the cheaper something is the easier it is for them to "let it go". Just because that isn't what you would do, doesn't mean thats not what others will do. Again, I applaude you for placing your animals so well. Most people dont' take that time.

And do you have any data to back your claims? I am not here to garner your approval. I am here to state my position, and why I think it's a good idea for the hobby with, literally, the enemy at our gates. I's very easy of you to question my logic because I don't have any facts, but it's just as easy for me to ask you about your facts? Can you show me something that proves me wrong? Go to your local animal shelter and ask them how many ball pythons they take in each year...and then ask them if they want more. Why not curb that flow of animals a little? Whats the harm? It makes you feel bad? You already feed animals to toher animals as a part of your hobby...the species being different makes you this upset? How great will you feel when we can't keep any of our animals becuase we are not responsible with the ones we currently mass produce?

S~

[waltah!]

Someone a while ago used an excellent example. I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator? If you are running in the rain, which one do you care about getting wet the most? For MANY people, especially impulse buyers, the cheaper something is the easier it is for them to "let it go". Just because that isn't what you would do, doesn't mean thats not what others will do. Again, I applaude you for placing your animals so well. Most people dont' take that time.

And do you have any data to back your claims? I am not here to garner your approval. I am here to state my position, and why I think it's a good idea for the hobby with, literally, the enemy at our gates. I's very easy of you to question my logic because I don't have any facts, but it's just as easy for me to ask you about your facts? Can you show me something that proves me wrong? Go to your local animal shelter and ask them how many ball pythons they take in each year...and then ask them if they want more. Why not curb that flow of animals a little? Whats the harm? It makes you feel bad? You already feed animals to toher animals as a part of your hobby...the species being different makes you this upset? How great will you feel when we can't keep any of our animals becuase we are not responsible with the ones we currently mass produce?

S~

If I had to choose to lose my iPhone or one of my normal males I would be losing that iPhone. Just sayin...

[ShawnC]

It seems, from what you have written, which is somewhat confusing, that you have two trains of thought.

On the one hand, you say feeding your babies for food is ethical. No problem, I can see that.

Yes this is my position exactly.

To the left however, you say it is good for the breed, ie you the breeder who makes money off the morphs he sells, and is better for the snakes which is a baseless assumption.

I never said this. I said it's good for the hobby to not mass produce low value snakes that end up in the everglades or dead because they are considered by many to be disposable. I did say I think it's better for the snakes, not the breed, that they be used as a feeder animals early, than sent out into the world where they are more likely than not, to have a poor qualoity of life. I am not a proponent of culling to better the breed. I never have been.

If you're not confused, and I don't mean to insult you, you're either a good liar or you don't know yourself as well as you think.

No, your reading INTO what I am writing, not reading WHAT I am writing. There is a difference. You are making assumptions based on what you think I am saying, not stating what I actually said, and mean. I am using very specific language for a reason.

S~

[ShawnC]

If I had to choose to lose my iPhone or one of my normal males I would be losing that iPhone. Just sayin...

OK thats just funny. 8-)

S~

[waltah!]

OK thats just funny. 8-)

S~

Not funny, but true. You make lots of assumptions regarding the members here. Pets are pets. They're not electronics that are easily replaced so I don't think it's a good comparison.
Luckily for you Mom and Dad didn't subscribe to these same ideals since there are plenty of babies in the world.

[ShawnC]

If you were truly so concern about the future of your animals, don't you thinl you should worry about the other too?

I am, but they are far less likely to get poor care, because they are more expensive.

Do you seriously thing that because they are pretty or more expensive they cannot be abused, abandonned or die?

No, I think it's much less likely. Thats the best you can hope for really.

You can try to justify it all you want, whether it's the breeding for food, or you saving them from an atrocious future , you are simply killing those animals because they are "ugly" not worthy or your time and might take longer to sell...................... it's that simple.

And don't get me wrong you can do what you want with your animals but at least be honest with yourself and the reason why you are really doing what you are doing.

This is a very common thought because it's the easiest to believe. I can't change that excpet by beating the same drum over and over. Ten years ago when I lived in Florida I was preaching that Burms and Retics would be a problem in South Florida, and it would slap the entire hobby. Look where we are today? I am saying now that, we have reduced some species of snakes, pythons in particular, to such cheap animals because they are mass produced, that they will in the long run do more harm that good for the hobby. How many times do you think a politician will need to hear a shelter say they cant' take anymore ball pythons...and that it's a real, costly problem, before we can't keep them anymore? is that really worth selling a baby snake for $10?

S~

[wilomn]

I am, but they are far less likely to get poor care, because they are more expensive.



No, I think it's much less likely. Thats the best you can hope for really.




This is a very common thought because it's the easiest to believe. I can't change that excpet by beating the same drum over and over. Ten years ago when I lived in Florida I was preaching that Burms and Retics would be a problem in South Florida, and it would slap the entire hobby. Look where we are today? I am saying now that, we have reduced some species of snakes, pythons in particular, to such cheap animals because they are mass produced, that they will in the long run do more harm that good for the hobby. How many times do you think a politician will need to hear a shelter say they cant' take anymore ball pythons...and that it's a real, costly problem, before we can't keep them anymore? is that really worth selling a baby snake for $10?

S~

Ohhhhhh, now I get it.

YOU get to choose for all of us what we do.

You have one point of view and do not see any other.

I say yours is flawed and therefore invalid.

You have every right no only to have it, but to proclaim it from every forum that will let you.

That does NOT make it valid though. Nothing will.

[ShawnC]

Not funny, but true. You make lots of assumptions regarding the members here. Pets are pets. They're not electronics that are easily replaced so I don't think it's a good comparison.
Luckily for you Mom and Dad didn't subscribe to these same ideals since there are plenty of babies in the world.

I make assumptions regarding mankind, not anyone here. Most of the folks here are like me, and care alot for their animals, and what happens to them when they leave our care. The problem is that when we tire of an animal, or can't use it anymore we sell it or give it away for the most part. This happens again, then again, especially with inexpensive animals. At some point in that chain, less valuable animals ussually met an untimely end for one reason or another. Reducing the number of them at hatching is good from every angle. The smaller footprint we have in the eyes of the folks who want to takeour snakes away, the better. The footprint I speak of is stories of released animals, and abused animals.

S~

[rabernet]

Someone a while ago used an excellent example. I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator? If you are running in the rain, which one do you care about getting wet the most? For MANY people, especially impulse buyers, the cheaper something is the easier it is for them to "let it go". Just because that isn't what you would do, doesn't mean thats not what others will do. Again, I applaude you for placing your animals so well. Most people dont' take that time.

And do you have any data to back your claims? I am not here to garner your approval. I am here to state my position, and why I think it's a good idea for the hobby with, literally, the enemy at our gates. I's very easy of you to question my logic because I don't have any facts, but it's just as easy for me to ask you about your facts? Can you show me something that proves me wrong? Go to your local animal shelter and ask them how many ball pythons they take in each year...and then ask them if they want more. Why not curb that flow of animals a little? Whats the harm? It makes you feel bad? You already feed animals to toher animals as a part of your hobby...the species being different makes you this upset? How great will you feel when we can't keep any of our animals becuase we are not responsible with the ones we currently mass produce?

S~

Yes, I do have the data to make the claims about MY animals that have placed, and your assumptions hold no water in my personal experiences. I keep in touch with all the homes they've been placed in, and all of them still love them as much as the day that they got them. No one has yet taken me up on my offer to take their animals back if they grow tired or bored of them.

As to my local shelters here in metro Atlanta, they don't get many. How do I know? Because they have my number to call me as soon as any are surrendered there. I've had less than 5 calls in the past year. And when I call them to check from time to time, they don't have any.

I have no problem with feeder snakes. I do have a problem with devaluing the life of an animal and feeding it off for no other reason than it doesn't fit your definition of beauty, when there are many, many homes who would love the chance to own it as a pet.

I just don't believe that you've looked that hard, or you are just choosing not to see that there are many good people out there, who do take the responsibility of pet ownership very seriously and not as casually as you claim
that they do.

If you breed for the reason of creating feeder snakes, fine. I have no problem with that. But if you feed off animals for some higher "moral ground" that you've deigned needs to be there, I don't support that.

I do take offense that you believe that my animals, who I've carefully chosen homes for, are somehow worse off than yours who you choose to feed off.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Most of the folks here are like me

I've been a member of this site for 5 years and I might not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know one thing with absolutely certainty ... this is the most untrue statement ever posted on this forum.

Even though we may not always see eye to eye about things like animal prices, husbandry methods, politics, or religion, most of the folks here are people that I consider friends and fellow enthusiasts and I can assure you ... you are the odd man out.

-adam