Culling Healthy Animals

[Beardedragon]

How about you just selectively breed the best quality animals and do not expect to produce "ugly" animals? If your truly that worried about not being able to sell normals, breed everything with recessives or supers.

[ShawnC]

This statement is invalid.

If there are no absolutes, then any facts are suspect.

You can't have it both ways in this situation.

Of course you can. It's pure common sense that the cheaper an animal is, the less likely it is to get appropriate long term care, and the more likely it is to die from that improper care. There are no absolutes means that there are always exceptions...but a minority of exceptions does not negate the rule.

S~

[rabernet]

I also want to add, I have a local pet store practically begging me for my "throw-away" normals. Because he has referred to them as "throw-aways", none of my animals will ever be offered in his store. I just simply tell him that I don't have any throw-away animals.

Besides which, I DO enjoy taking the time to put that first ball python into the home of a new keeper and paying it forward to them with a nice, healthy, feeding animal vs. a Petco or Petsmart animal for $80, that may or may not feed for them, that may or may not have internal parasites, because they are farmed animals.

I get great joy in sharing my love for these magnificent creatures with someone just starting out. My hobby started with one "ugly" normal male ball python who will always have a home in my collection until the day he dies (of a natural long life, I might add).

I'd say that more than half of those homes where my normals have gone, are currently on my waiting list for their first morph.

[rabernet]

Of course you can. It's pure common sense that the cheaper an animal is, the less likely it is to get appropriate long term care, and the more likely it is to die from that improper care. There are no absolutes means that there are always exceptions...but a minority of exceptions does not negate the rule.

S~

Do you have ANY data that backs up your claims? So, because someone paid nothing for one of my normal males, (but spent well over $100 in purchases to set up their animal), it's less likely to be properly cared for? I would almost be willing to take an infraction to call cow manure!

[wilomn]

It seems, from what you have written, which is somewhat confusing, that you have two trains of thought.

On the one hand, you say feeding your babies for food is ethical. No problem, I can see that.

To the left however, you say it is good for the breed, ie you the breeder who makes money off the morphs he sells, and is better for the snakes which is a baseless assumption.

If you're not confused, and I don't mean to insult you, you're either a good liar or you don't know yourself as well as you think.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

And even so, the point still remains. I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.

And what make you so sure that higher end animals those that you deem deserving of a second chance (I mean those worth your time because they make money) won’t be dead in 2 years also?

If you were truly so concern about the future of your animals, don't you thinl you should worry about the other too? Do you seriously thing that because they are pretty or more expensive they cannot be abused, abandonned or die?

You can try to justify it all you want, whether it's the breeding for food, or you saving them from an atrocious future , you are simply killing those animals because they are "ugly" not worthy or your time and might take longer to sell...................... it's that simple.

And don't get me wrong you can do what you want with your animals but at least be honest with yourself and the reason why you are really doing what you are doing.

[ShawnC]

If Robin said she did, she does. Count on it.

You make MANY assumptions. A theory based on an unproven assumption, which you are in no way trying to prove or disprove, is worthless.

And you speak in vagueries to sound intellegent. Start naming the assumptions, and I'll explain why I think this way, and why I think it's good or bad for the hobby.

S~

[JLC]

...there are no absolutes.

S~

Absolutely.

[wilomn]

And you speak in vagueries to sound intellegent. Start naming the assumptions, and I'll explain why I think this way, and why I think it's good or bad for the hobby.

S~

Sorry dude, that wouldn't further my need to "sound intelligent" nor would it enable you to be honest with yourself, be that by admitting you are solely motivated by profit or that you are not entirely sure that what you are doing IS alright and so seek justification from fellow keepers.

You know the assumptions, you're not stupid. I'm just not going down that road with you.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Then you would be a minority. Mostlarge scale breeders..people who produce more than 100 animals per year, can not make these claims. I have been around a very long time. There are no absolutes of course.

Two points about the quote above ...

#1 ... "more than 100 animals per year" is not a "large scale breeder" by any stretch of the imagination. You should know better if you've been around for a "very long time"

#2 ... Ingrid is not in the minority. I produce over 100 animals a year by an order of magnitude and I make sure that EVERY animal I sell either goes to a good home or goes to a trusted friend that I know will find it a good home. I have dozens of friends in this business that produce as much and even more than I do that do the same. I don't know where you've been for this long time, but it's not in the same reptile hobby that I know.

It can be done. Just because you choose not to put forth the effort and choose to KILL healthy animals doesn't mean that the rest of the industry follows suit. I'm embarrassed for you that your mental picture of this business is a bunch of emotionless breeders that would rather kill healthy offspring than find them proper homes. I've been around a long time too, going on 30 years of keeping ball pythons, I've had the privilege of meeting thousands of reptile breeders, hobbyists, and enthusiasts, and while there is certainly a small fraction that does have the same flagrant disregard for how precious a life is that you seem to have the VAST MAJORITY care about their animals as much as most people care about a dog, or a cat, or a even a family member.

Shame on you for lumping all of the good people in this hobby into a pile with the careless scum that are 100% to blame for the problems we are having with state, local, and the federal governments ... Shame on you for not taking the time to get to know the side of the hobby that treasures every life no matter what it's financial value, as precious ... Shame on you for discounting the compassion, respect, and love for these animals that I see every day on these forums and in the phone calls and emails that I receive as something done for show or in order to make sales.

If you want to kill healthy animals, that's your choice. But don't try to sell it to people that actually care about life. No one is buying.

Blessings,

-adam