Culling Healthy Animals

[WingedWolfPsion]

My 2 cents, as I just spotted this thread:

Normal ball pythons are in high demand in the pet trade. Morphs are in virtually 0 demand in the pet trade. By providing quality (by which I mean healthy) normal ball pythons to the pet trade, we may potentially be reducing the demand for CH or wild caught ball pythons, which is desirable.

I have no sympathy for the notion that ugly snakes should be culled...in part because I think they are NOT ugly. Normal ball pythons, for example, are beautiful animals. I sell my normal males to a local pet store for a fair price--it's above wholesale. The rest I sell to individuals locally as pets. I have no problem selling my normal ball pythons. Once I am producing very large numbers of them, of course I will have to sell them wholesale, instead, but they'll wind up in the hands of individuals who want them for pets.

Ball pythons don't breed like rats. There is no good purpose served in culling them, it's just a waste of life.

[ShawnC]

Every single normal male I have produced, I have placed in free pet homes, and I screened each home as best that I could. I asked very pointed questions about housing, experience, and if they had no experience, pointed them to sites and caresheets to help them get started BEFORE they took their new pets home.

I really like hearing the good stories about those guy finding good homes, and good on you for doing that, but I seriously doubt the above to be true. Now I don't know you, so I am not going to call you a liar, but you would be the ONLY Ball Python breeder I have ever met that does this for EVERY normal animal.

And even so, the point still remains. I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.

S~

[ShawnC]

Seperately, I wanted to reiterate again, that I am not saying noone should ever produce normals and or other than top notch animals. All I am saying is that it's ethically OK to use them, when you have too many, as a food animal for other species. I think this is also good for the hobby as a whole, as it keeps there from being so many of these animals out there that noone really wanted, or intended, to make. Most of the normal balls and Mutts carpets produced are the results of Morph crossings. When there are too many, you are not obligated to sell them off. It's better for the hobby if you don't IMHO. There are already tons of them out there.

There is a demand for any animal at the right price, but the lower the price gets, the more disposable the animal becomes. This is a fact...again...there are no absolutes.

S~

[wilomn]

I should point out to those who are not familiar with carpets that it's a difficult species to work with because many of the morphs are in different subspieces, so in order to cross them, you make hybrid "normal" offspring. In essence...Mutts. Rather than just send them into the world, muddying up the gene pool further and creating animals that are nothing other than pet quality snakes...I tend to take the ones I don't think will be very nice looking, and I feed them to a Lizard so they don't go out and become giant ugly brown snakes that noone wants, which is where this discussion comes from. I got a very similar reaction on my own forum, and I though it might be fun to discuss it on a larger venue, and see what everyone else thinks. Thank you all again BTW for making this a positive experience.

S~

This is entirely different than culling because you have too many.

If you're working towards a goal and producing animals that do not contribute to that goal AND, here's the key, you don't want anyone else working with them muddying up what you're doing, then culling is the way to deal with your babies that don't fit the criteria you use for future breeders.

I personally don't have a problem with you feeding snakes to whatever will eat them, but I do think you're either confused yourself or just don't want to be totally totally honest.

You're culling to make what you want. That's cool. But why are you making what you want? Is it for the sheer joy of putting two snakes together to see what you get or is there a profit motive?

I can't see any way to validate your assumption that your ugly babies would suffer and die. They might. They might not. No one knows but you have decided they will be better off dead, without either total clarity or honesty, and feed them off.

Freeze em, feed em, give them away but be honest about why you're doing it. It really seems like you're trying to justify your "honesty" but not being honest with yourself, and thereby us, about why.

[wilomn]

There is a demand for any animal at the right price, but the lower the price gets, the more disposable the animal becomes. This is a fact...again...there are no absolutes.

S~

This statement is invalid.

If there are no absolutes, then any facts are suspect.

You can't have it both ways in this situation.

[wilomn]

I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.

S~

If Robin said she did, she does. Count on it.

You make MANY assumptions. A theory based on an unproven assumption, which you are in no way trying to prove or disprove, is worthless.

[waltah!]

I really like hearing the good stories about those guy finding good homes, and good on you for doing that, but I seriously doubt the above to be true. Now I don't know you, so I am not going to call you a liar, but you would be the ONLY Ball Python breeder I have ever met that does this for EVERY normal animal.

And even so, the point still remains. I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.

S~

I on the other hand, I don't doubt it for a second. You are right.....you don't know her.

[rabernet]

I really like hearing the good stories about those guy finding good homes, and good on you for doing that, but I seriously doubt the above to be true. Now I don't know you, so I am not going to call you a liar, but you would be the ONLY Ball Python breeder I have ever met that does this for EVERY normal animal.

And even so, the point still remains. I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.

S~

Stating that you seriously doubt it to be true IS calling me a liar.

I'd bet within two years all of them will be continuing to thrive in the homes of the people I placed them with. Why? Because they all contact me from time to time to give me updates on their animals. They are beloved pets for them. AND, they know that I'll take them back if they ever find they can't or no longer wish to care for them.

That's how I choose to run my small hobby business, and I won't produce a huge number of animals just because I can. I also happen to believe selective breeding is the future of ball pythons. Therefore, I may have some females ready to go, but they don't fit into that year's plans, because I don't think they compliment what I'm striving towards. Good for me, they get another year of maturity and growth until I'm ready to use them in a different project.

Some of the animals that I produce may not have monetary value, but their lives hold GREAT value to me. I have turned down more homes than I've accepted for my normal males. I keep most of my normal females, and those I let go, so far have gone to other breeders that I know personally.

Some of us really DO do this for the love of the animals and not the love of the dollar.

[waltah!]

And even so, the point still remains. I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.

S~

I'm glad to see that you have so much faith in customers (and potential customers) to think that they can't keep an animal alive for 2 yrs. I'm assuming you don't sell any animals that you "like the looks of" as they only stand a 50% chance of making it.

[ShawnC]

This is entirely different than culling because you have too many.

If you're working towards a goal and producing animals that do not contribute to that goal AND, here's the key, you don't want anyone else working with them muddying up what you're doing, then culling is the way to deal with your babies that don't fit the criteria you use for future breeders.

I personally don't have a problem with you feeding snakes to whatever will eat them, but I do think you're either confused yourself or just don't want to be totally totally honest.

You're culling to make what you want. That's cool. But why are you making what you want? Is it for the sheer joy of putting two snakes together to see what you get or is there a profit motive?

I can't see any way to validate your assumption that your ugly babies would suffer and die. They might. They might not. No one knows but you have decided they will be better off dead, without either total clarity or honesty, and feed them off.

Freeze em, feed em, give them away but be honest about why you're doing it. It really seems like you're trying to justify your "honesty" but not being honest with yourself, and thereby us, about why.

I honestly don't understand what you are saying here. How am I being dishonest exactly? I am not being a smartass...I really don't get what you are saying.