Culling Healthy Animals

[ShawnC]

You have based everything you have said on assumptions.

Name a few please, or stop talking.

I have no need to prove anything. I'm not the one trying to prove a point of view.

Yes you are. You are trying to tell me I am wrong. Gop back a few posts and read where you are tell me so. Then please tell me why I am, or just go away.

I can and do say that you are postulating as true what is not. That invalidates what you say.

Like what, and why is it untrue, because you say so? Thats called using a GodStatement, and that has no merit. You have to have a reason why it's not true, or you have no point.

The proof is in this thread. You have been disagreed with on almost every assumption you have put forth. You refuse to see any point of view other than your own, which is not debate but defense.

Go back and reread it. There are nearly half that agree with me, or at least have no problem with it. The vocal ones are the folks who disagree. Thats not uncommon, and what I was hoping for.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, don't care enough to put that much effort into it. Without putting effort into it though, I can see that your logic is flawed.

Again...God Statement. Why did you come here, disagree with me, not post anything with any merit, and then bow out because you "don't care"? That means I won our debate. Thank you.

S~

[wilomn]

Name a few please, or stop talking.



Yes you are. You are trying to tell me I am wrong. Gop back a few posts and read where you are tell me so. Then please tell me why I am, or just go away.



Like what, and why is it untrue, because you say so? Thats called using a GodStatement, and that has no merit. You have to have a reason why it's not true, or you have no point.



Go back and reread it. There are nearly half that agree with me, or at least have no problem with it. The vocal ones are the folks who disagree. Thats not uncommon, and what I was hoping for.



Again...God Statement. Why did you come here, disagree with me, not post anything with any merit, and then bow out because you "don't care"? That means I won our debate. Thank you.

S~

LOL

As you will.

[Adam_Wysocki]

This topic is emotionally driven... If you try really hard to take the emotion out of it

Of course it's emotionally driven, we're talking about killing living creatures here ... these aren't widgets, iphones, ipods, or sunglasses ... there is a name for people that speak about killing without emotion ... they're called sociopaths.

I mean really, did you seriously just suggest that we need to kill "low value" animals in order to reduce our "footprint" in the eyes of the government? Do you seriously believe that the only way to protect our rights as pet owners and breeders is to accept the notion that it's ok to take a life in the name of a hobby?

Well, I'm ready for my first infraction in 5 years ... cause that's about the biggest load of horse doo doo I've ever heard. (sorry for the potty mouth mods)

Blessings,

-adam

[ShawnC]

The original comparison was an Iphone to a calculator. YOU replaced the "disposable" calculator with a ball python.

No, that comparison was made by a member here other than me, but in this same thread. It was a good analogy, so I reused it to explain my point, again, because it takes emotion out of the equation. Didn't I just go over this with you?

You called Robin a liar.

No, I said I didn't know her well enough to call her a liar, and said if she were being truthful with me, that she's the first ball breeder I ever met who cares that much to do what she does for her animals. Others backed her up, and respect her for it, so now I do too.

and mockingly called me one with the "that's just funny" reply regarding the above comparison.

Actually. You said you'd rather let the Iphone get wet than the calculator. That made me laugh, and I thought you were trying to be funny, and break the ice a little. My bad I guess....sheesh. Next time I won't politely laugh.

Nobody has to put any words in your mouth to make you look bad. You are doing a mighty fine job of that all on your own. You keep saying to "take the emotion out of it". It's tough to do that when the subject matter is pets (bp's to be precise) on a site called ballpythons.net. Being unemotional about it is really not an option unless your main goal is just to have the biggest collection which any idiot with a credit card could accomplish.

Sir, you keep misqouting me. Please read above in the last few exchanges I have had with you. Thats not fair, and called putting words in my mouth. I m not here to make friends, andif being truthful is making me look bad, then that OK with me.

Yet again, I am not here to garner approval, and I am just saying what tons of people already think, but never talk about on a forum. The really great thing is that you guys are helping me make my point. Your not attacking my logic, your attacking me personally by misqouting me, and negating my thoughts with GodStatements. Thats your emotions talking, which I totally get, and just keep trying to remind you that it's not about emotions, it's about whats best for the hobby. And whats best is not always what is the easiest, or most fun.

S~

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Well, Don't kill baby snakes because it's MEAN!!! alright no, but seriously...


sorry but I'll just be very blunt here. I do not agree with culling healthy animals, even accidental hybrids, for any reason. If people have trouble homing snakes that they produce, they should not be producing them in the first place. I believe that once they are born their life is to be respected such as any other's would be. It is not their fault that they were produced and made they way they are, and they should not have to pay the ultimate price for it. This goes across the board, not just for snake keepers. People who cull healthy animals should maybe take a step back and look into a different hobby, one that does not involve choosing who is worthy of living, and who isn't. Breeding specifically for feeders is different and there's nothing wrong with it, but I am not aware of anyone personally that puts all the work into breeding snakes to use as feeders, because let's all be realistic here it IS a lot of work, and a heck of a LOT more to produce than any rodent or bird feeder, there are just so many other options that make SO much more sense. But still, I am not talking about breeding and using snakes as feeders, I am talking about the people who just opt for the easiest and cheapest way out of a situation that involves too many baby snakes. There is something wrong with people who will simply think nothing of killing off animals that are either not up to their personal standards, or that they are having too much trouble finding homes for. Most of the time, they are simply not trying hard enough or are trying to get something out of them in an effort not to lose money. Many dog and cat breeders think nothing of doing it. I have witnessed this personally and one of my customers owns a pefectly healthy beagle that was brought to her office to be put to sleep as a puppy because she was not "up to par", whatever that means. I am not angry because it's a cute little puppy, I am angry because some people have a serious god complex. Who is that person to decide that a healthy, thriving animal is sub-par? Who wrote that handbook? I would like to meet this person. And then hit them.
If you have quadruplets and you were only aiming to have a single baby, and the strain is really too much and one of those children has a very slight handicap, surely, you wouldn't cull that child. What I am trying to say is, respect life in all of it's forms. One life form should never be considered less valuable than another.

This also continues to be a problem in cornsnakes, and probably BP's too, everyone is producing far too many and the animals are the only ones that suffer from it. If you truly love your animals, and you respect them and love them as you would your own family, then it should be the same for their offspring. I know and have met many, many, many people at expo's who I can clearly say, should be in a different hobby. Those would be the ones that treat animal keeping and collecting much the same they would stamp, trading card, and rock collecting. I simply can't stand it. They should not be treated as merchandise or product, it strips much of the true value of this hobby away, as does the short and to the point, recycled, synthetic-feeling responses you get from breeders and sellers who treat them as such. If you have to treat them like they are merchandise/products, you have too many. Where is the quality of life there?

I keep snakes because I love them to pieces, every single one and I will do anything, even if I lose money, or even turn down a sale (I have, actually), to ensure that any snake I produce will have a bright future ahead. If I ever get to the point where I cannot handle everything on a personal level with time to dedicate to my snakes and customers on an individual, personalized basis I will know it's time to downsize. I wish more people would take that extra step and even maybe try to get a feel for each of their hatchlings on a one on one basis. To many people, that is absurd and completely unrealistic. But I know for a fact it is not. Give me a clutch of baby snakes that all look the same and in a few weeks I will know them as individuals... their sex, what they prefer to eat, how they'd like to eat it and what kind of temper they have. Try it, it gives you a distinct advantage: potential buyers love the fact that you actually care past having a successful transaction!

[SilverWolf]

If it's simply not for the money and you do care about the animal enough to worry what might happen to it in the future (because there are too many "normal" "ugly" snakes).
Then you would either not breed at all or breed very limited amounts so that you could be very careful with who gets those "normal" "ugly" snakes you produced while trying to get that "high end" "pretty" snake.

Without having to cull any of them!

Just my opinion.

[ShawnC]

Of course it's emotionally driven, we're talking about killing living creatures here ... these aren't widgets, iphones, ipods, or sunglasses ... there is a name for people that speak about killing without emotion ... they're called sociopaths.

I mean really, did you seriously just suggest that we need to kill "low value" animals in order to reduce our "footprint" in the eyes of the government? Do you seriously believe that the only way to protect our rights as pet owners and breeders is to accept the notion that it's ok to take a life in the name of a hobby?

Well, I'm ready for my first infraction in 5 years ... cause that's about the biggest load of horse doo doo I've ever heard. (sorry for the potty mouth mods)

Blessings,

-adam

Yes, I seriously think that it's OK to use low value snakes as feeders. I also think that in doing so, it helps our hobby. I understand they are living things, but so are dogs and cats, and we kill tens of millions every year in shelters because they are unwanted...snakes are in the same boat. There are way more out there already than need be. So, lets take a moment before we decide to blow out a bunch of $10 snakes and ask if it's doing us any good as a hobby? We are already under pressure. Why make it worse on ourselves to make a few extra bucks. it's not worht it IMHO.

If I offered you an 18 foot brum right now, would you take it and keep it for the rest of your life? Be careful of your answer, I might actually have one to send you. What should I do with that burm now that I can't, or don't want to care for it? This question comes up hundreds of times everyday already in the hobby. Thanks to stuff being released...we are all fighting to keep our rights as hobbiests. It'd be nice to show the govt. we are more than a bunch of money grubbing fools selling $10 mass produced snakes no matter what the cost I think. Don't you?

S~

[ShawnC]

If it's simply not for the money and you do care about the animal enough to worry what might happen to it in the future (because there are too many "normal" "ugly" snakes).
Then you would either not breed at all or breed very limited amounts so that you could be very careful with who gets those "normal" "ugly" snakes you produced while trying to get that "high end" "pretty" snake.

Without having to cull any of them!

Just my opinion.

I completly agree with you. The problem is, if I have to give up my hobby, it's not choice at all. I'll cull snakes all day long rather than give it up. I love working with my animals, and if that means I think a few should be used as feeders to make me feel better about what I am doing as a hobbiest, so be it. Thats selfish I know. But no more selfish in my view than someone who sells hundred lots of ball pythons for nothing so they can make a quick buck. I think thats far worse than what I do.

S~

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Most large scale breeders..people who produce more than 100 animals per year, can not make these claims. I have been around a very long time.

I produce upwards of 300 carpet pythons babies per year, and have this year, expanded into ball pythons.

I am not a big breeder. Maybe 300 babies per year...thats not that many.

So you are by your own definition a large scale breeder because you produce more then 100 animals per year.... And you have been around a long time.

But you also are NOT a big breeder because you only breed 300 babies per year, and that's not many.

You just started working with ball pythons this year, but somehow we as a ball python forum should consider that you have been around for a long time.

LOL

It's pure common sense that the cheaper an animal is, the less likely it is to get appropriate long term care, and the more likely it is to die from that improper care.

This is an idiotic statement at best. You obviously have NO clue what you are talking about. This could not be further from the truth. I am not even going to begin to try to argue my point on this because you have already made it clear that it would be a waste of time.

Someone a while ago used an excellent example. I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator?

So now you are comparing an animal that YOU produced to an electronic product? Or you are using this point that someone else made to back up your argument? I wish there was a way to immediately ban you from being able to even keep reptiles... let alone breed them. Luckily though sooner or later we will find out who you really are and your business will be in ruins without any outside help.

Welcome to the world of Ball Pythons. I hope you enjoy your SHORT stay.

[wilomn]

Thanks to stuff being released...we are all fighting to keep our rights as hobbiests.

S~

Really? That's the only source of wild pythons in Fla?

You pick and choose, ignore and imply, yet you say the same thing over and over.

You don't want a conversation, you don't want a debate. You want us to tell you it's ok.

Good luck with that.