Culling Healthy Animals

[ShawnC]

Let me first explain that I am not trying to start any fights, but I am trying to get some open, and honest debate going on a topic that I feel is long overdue in our Hobby. It is my position, and it has been for a long time, that culling of perfectly healthy animals is a good thing when apposed to just dumping massive numbers of them into the public marketplace.

Below is a post that I made in another forum where we are debating this very thing. I am begging you all PLEASE do not fight, and keep this in the tone that it is intended, which is a fair, and reasonable debate on the pro's and con's of what we, as serious hobbiest's do to our own hobby by breeding enourmous amounts of these animals every year.

I should preface this by saying that I do cull a small percentage of animals that I feel are better served by being used as feeders for my Monitor Lizard, and my Arrowanna fish, rather than sent out into the marketplace as junk snakes. I should also point out that I work with Carpet pythons alot, so I am talking alot about hybridized, ugly brown carpets, but this arguement can be made for Normal Balls as well. So here goes..please read below, and post what you think is right or wrong?

"I love this debate, because it's all about feelings. These are ANIMALS that we work with as a hobby. They are not my pet like my dog. I probably should have said I love my hobby, as that is much more accurate than I love my snakes. I don't cry and get all upset if I loose a snake...but I bawl when I loose a dog. They are two different things to me. A dog is a part of my family, my pet. My snakes are my hobby. This is a hobby that I enjoy, and I won't jeapordize my hobby to make you guys feel better about killing off unwanted animals (which is good for the hobby). There is ethically, absoutely, no difference, between breeding rats and feeding them off, and breeding snakes and feeding them off. Its done with hundreds if not thousand of species of animals all over the world, every day. Snakes are no different. You like snakes...so it doens't feel right, but ethically, it absolutely is.

I would take it one further and argue that, I am doing ugly snakes a service by ending their lives quickly rather than letting them changes hands from owner to owner dozens of times, until eventually they die from abuse or worse, they escape or are let loose (both hurt our hobby enormously). This is what happens to the majority of ugly, unwanted animals, including snakes. So under the guise of you loving your animals, you send tens of thousands of them (unwanted) off each year, to die much more prolonged deaths, than merely being eaten by a natural predator. This decision is about your feelings, not logical thinking and/or the betterment of the hobby. It's about your heart, whch I totally get, but is the reason the hobby is in the state that it's in.

Now that all said. I think you guys think that I just kill off everything that I produce thats not a morph. Thats not what I said. I said if I have really ugly, unsellable stock, (which is a pretty small percentage) that has no chance of being purchased by someone that I know will care for the animal properly, I see no reason to not feed it to my lizard or my giant fish. Snakes are prey for both animals in the wild. Especialy baby snakes. It's completely normal. No different than deciding one day to throw them one of my mice or rats.

BTW, before you call me money hungry only wanting to keep the best, easiest selling snakes, keep in mind that thats counterproductive. I can always find a jobber to buy my left overs each season for $40 per animals. 10 snakes times $40 each is still $400. Thats alot of cash. It's not about the money. It's about weather or not I think it's a good thing for the hobby to be sending out animals that I know are undesirable and, in most cases, destined to have not so great lives anyway.

You guys want to see all of the designer stuff ,and you want to work on all the projects for double, triple, even quadruple mutations...then you have to deal with the truth which is that in order to make those, you produce lots of normal snakes (in every species, not just carpets). If you think dumping them into the marketplace is good for the animals, and good for the hobby, you'd be dead wrong."

S~

[Adam_Wysocki]

I morally cannot get past the idea of killing a healthy animal that many many responsible people would gladly provide a forever home for.

I feel that if you are producing these animals, then you have taken on the responsibility of either keeping or finding responsible forever homes for every life that you produce.

To me, your analogy that feeding off these "less than acceptable" animals is no different than breeding rodents as feeders doesn't cut the mustard. If you were specifically breeding snakes for food (like rodent breeders do with rodents) or if your pets would not eat any other prey item than snakes I might be able to understand. But this is not the case, you are making a choice to end a life that doesn't have to be ended. You also are not feeding off ALL of your offspring, just the ones that you personally don't like.

Blaming the "irresponsible public" for the willful killing of a perfectly healthy animal has always been a perverted sense of logic that I've never been able to understand. Pointing a finger and saying that if I don't kill these animals someone else will or someone will let it go or someone will let it suffer is complete crap ... the exact same thing could happen with the animals that you put a high value on and decide not to kill. Maybe the solution is to screen your customers more thoroughly, maybe you shouldn't produce as many offspring, maybe you shouldn't breed at all. But I can say with absolute certainty that justifying the killing of a perfectly healthy animal by blaming the public at large is pathetic.

The bottom line is that I value life ... all life ... I despise the idea of ending a healthy life for any reason, even if that reason is feeding my animals ... but there is a cycle of life that I have respect for and until an alternative solution presents itself, I must follow. But playing god by picking and choosing which lives have value and which lives are acceptable to destroy is something that I personally don't believe that any person has the right to do.

Blessings,

-adam

[Spaniard]

Adam thank you for saving me a lot of typing I whole heartedly agree...

[JLC]

I'm gonna start off by letting folks know the staff will be watching this thread very closely. It's a hot topic issue that can easily erupt into something very ugly. If it does, it may get sent to QT, or it may get pulled entirely. Just a heads up.

As for the topic at hand...I see two issues I'd like to comment on based on the OP's initial statement.

One...snakes as feeders: This is something that can be emotionally difficult to deal with for those who emotionally love their snakes...but the OP is right in that it is no different than rodents (lots of folks love mice and rats just as much as we love our snakes)...lizards...frogs...and other feeder animals. I may never choose to use a snake as a feeder animal (I'd never keep an animal that HAD to eat a snake)....but I also wouldn't hold it against anyone for using snakes as feeders for legitimate reasons.

Two...loving the hobby vs. loving the animals: That, I find exception to. The whole POINT of the hobby is the animals. If a person is "into the hobby" but not in love with the animals....well, the only other reason I can fathom is the money. Maybe I misunderstood. That disagreement with your statement doesn't change my opinion of the point of using snakes as feeder animals....but it DOES color my perception of your motivations for your argument.

I think it's wrong to assume "ugly" animals are doomed to horrible lives just because they don't live up to your personal standards of beauty. If we take on the task of breeding these animals, then we should ACCEPT the responsibility for the lives we bring into this world. Unhealthy animals should be culled mercifully. Healthy animals may be used for feeders if necessary. But to justify culling healthy animals "for the good of the hobby" is little more than a flippant attitude about life that, unfortunately, is rampant in this and other animal-breeding hobbies.

[ShawnC]

I feel that if you are producing these animals, then you have taken on the responsibility of either keeping or finding responsible forever homes for every life that you produce.

So when you produce 100 (i don't know if you do or not, its a rhetorical question) normal Ball pythons, and you wholsale them for $10 each to a jobber, does that qualify as taking responsibility, or is that just making a quick buck? Be honest with yourself I emplore you.

To me, your analogy that feeding off these "less than acceptable" animals is no different than breeding rodents as feeders doesn't cut the mustard.

Why not? I am nto freezing them or chopping their heads off. I am choosing to use them as feeders to care for my other animals.

Blaming the "irresponsible public" for the willful killing of a perfectly healthy animal has always been a perverted sense of logic that I've never been able to understand. Pointing a finger and saying that if I don't kill these animals someone else will or someone will let it go or someone will let it suffer is complete crap ... the exact same thing could happen with the animals that you put a high value on and decide not to kill. Maybe the solution is to screen your customers more thoroughly, maybe you shouldn't produce as many offspring, maybe you shouldn't breed at all. But I can say with absolute certainty that justifying the killing of a perfectly healthy animal by blaming the public at large is pathetic.

In your opinion. My opinion is, it's more ethical of me to take the responsibility and make the choice to feed them off. Why would I want to sell them off cheap, with no sayso on where they go and who cares for them, when they are, based on market value, not likely to have a high quality of life? I would argue you are not taking responsibility when you do that. It's much easier to just sell them. (Again, you being the guy who may, or may not produce a bunch of unwanted snakes) Expensive animals are much more likely to be cared for properly. Thats just basic common sense. There are exceptions to every rule...but you have to look at this from the majority point of view.

The bottom line is that I value life ... all life ... I despise the idea of ending a healthy life for any reason, even if that reason is feeding my animals ... but there is a cycle of life that I have respect for and until an alternative solution presents itself, I must follow. But playing god by picking and choosing which lives have value and which lives are acceptable to destroy is something that I personally don't believe that any person has the right to do.

You are already playing god by deciding to breed reptiles in captivity. These animals do not need you to do that for them I assure you. you do it for personal pleasure. When you make that decision, you also make the decision to feed and care for them. Why then are you not willing to take the next responsbile step, both for the animals and the hobby, and figure out a reasonalble way to deal with the offspring...both desirable, and undesirable? Is ti really a good idea, good for the animals, and good for our hobby to send out tens if not hundreds of thousands of cheap, ugly snakes into a marketplace full of impulse buyers?


S~

[Muze]

I understand breeding snakes as feeders. Seems like a waste to me (considering rodents are so much cheaper). However, I cannot understand how someone can breed anything as a hobby (be it fancy mice, dogs, snakes) and cull healthy animals because they are 'ugly'. I would not purchase from a breeder that I am aware practices culling of healthy animals. To me this exhibits a disrespect of life in general.

[MsPrada]

I'm not a breeder, but I am an avid fan of animal welfare so I'll chime in and share my feelings. I won't argue, but debate is never unwelcome.

As far as feeding snakes to other animals, I don't have a problem. I feel like breeding rats for consumption of animals is the same as breeding cows for us to eat. Theoretically, breeding snakes to feed animals isn't that much different. I feel, however, if its an animal that eats snake in the wild or as a natural food source, thats fine. I do disagree if you are breeding snakes to feed animals that like meat but do not eat snake meat. My only feeling is that you should feed the animal its normal food source and if you can not, then do not keep it as a captive animal.

Now, moving on to ugly snakes. I am an avid believer that the aesthetics of animals, or the beauty of them, is absolutely NO reason to cull a snake, or any animal for that purpose. In my opinion you can not be 100% sure that the animal will have a bad life if someone buys it. For example, pretend there is a breeder that breeds for designer animals, BPS for example, and ends up with a bunch of normals. I, as a buyer, would buy this animal and give a good life. Just because it is 'ugly' to you does not mean it is indicative that any potential buyer, me included, would not care for it. This is almost the same logic that people that don't pay for expensive bedding will not care for their snakes the same way that someone who pays $11 for a bag of bedding will. If you are taking the initiative to breed, period, then you need to be prepared for the consequences. Every clutch is not going to be 5 designer snakes. Thus, I feel that if you are breeding you need to be prepared BEFORE you begin with a plan for the "non-designer" animals. Just like you should if you are a breeder for dogs or cats or anything. These are lives that are being made because you want to make them, hobby or for money or what. You did it, not the animal. You took the creation into your own hands because these are your animals and you had to put them together to breed. So you need to know what to do with the "unwanteds" as you call them. I just don't think there is a real 100% opportunity for you to know that "...you'd be dead wrong." for selling these snakes. I don't see how it isn't good for the hobby to find a home for an unwanted. How does this jeopardize the hobby? Isn't the hobby breeding? Isn't there many a person that says breeding should be done for the betterment of the animal? In this case producing healthy morphs that may not have existed before? So, again, I don't understand how getting rid of this normal, passing it on to someone who may or may not care for it (again, you don't know) is going to harm the breeding and passing on of the designer morphs.

Now, I understand this is a hobby for you, not a pet, but you must still understand these are lives, rather its a pretty snake or an ugly snake. It may not be your dog for you but the ones you cull that aren't pretty may be a dog to someone else.

Thats just my opinion. I must say, I am mainly utilitarian as far as animals go (I do believe in relationships, however, with animals) so I get that these animals do something for you. I just have to weigh the pros and the cons, and in my opinion as far as ugly animals go, the cons don't weigh out.

[mainbutter]

So when you cull snakes, they become feeders?

As long as you're not being wasteful in ending the animals life, I'm ok with your actions.

The attitude towards the hobby and your animals however is a little unfortunate. My reptiles are both my hobby and my pets. I care for them every bit as much as I have cared for social, cuddly, fuzzy, warm pets I have had in the past. They are not simply living art to me.

[MsPrada]

Why would I want to sell them off cheap, with no sayso on where they go and who cares for them, when they are, based on market value, not likely to have a high quality of life?
S~

I'd like to know why you would have no say so when its your animals to give, and where is your proof that low market value=low quality of life.

[ShawnC]

I, like most of you, do not LIKE to kill things. Even feeder rodents. Thats why I feed/cull to other critters. Somehow it feels more natural than just killing them for no purpose, and I don't feel so bad. I just see this is as a cradle to grave reponsibility as a breeder. If you want to breed snakes, you are going to have to deal responsibly with ALL of the offspring...not just the ones that sell well. Dumping them into the marketplace I think is bad from every angle. It just sucks to cull them, so we don't do it...but I think we should.

S~