Put it down already

[kellysballs]

To Mike C. I was not "calling out a specific breeder" I was refering to the morph super cinny/super black pastel that is commonly refered to as an 8ball ball python. I was being lazy and not typing out the word eight.

[kellysballs]

Appology accepted Mike. Like I said I am not trying to attack just trying to help with a healthy debate. I have only had one instance of a deformed baby hatching out. I have spoke at length with my vet and two of my biology professors at stetson and the consensus is that it is a genetic defect.

Now I have taken steps to make sure that it does not happen again (I will not breed those two snakes together again), and I will make sure this baby never enters the breeding gene pool. However I am left with a very difficult dilema, what to do with the siblings and parents.

Some one stated that the hypothetical deformed baby "just lost the genetic lottery" but what that really means is most likely somewhere along that particular babies lineage one or more of it's parents, gparents...ect, carries the gene for what ever deformity has occured. With out extensive genetic testing there is no way to know. Think about breast cancer in humans, they now have a genetic test that will tell you if you posses the particular gene thought to cause it. 20 years ago this was unheard of.

I personally will not cull the entire line because they may carry a gene that might cause a deformity (most people do not). How do the rest of you feel about it, breeders or not. If you produced an animal that was deformed would you sell the siblings or parents? Would you allow the siblings to enter the breeding gene pool, either your own or another persons?

[nixer]

Appology accepted Mike. Like I said I am not trying to attack just trying to help with a healthy debate. I have only had one instance of a deformed baby hatching out. I have spoke at length with my vet and two of my biology professors at stetson and the consensus is that it is a genetic defect.

Now I have taken steps to make sure that it does not happen again (I will not breed those two snakes together again), and I will make sure this baby never enters the breeding gene pool. However I am left with a very difficult dilema, what to do with the siblings and parents.

Some one stated that the hypothetical deformed baby "just lost the genetic lottery" but what that really means is most likely somewhere along that particular babies lineage one or more of it's parents, gparents...ect, carries the gene for what ever deformity has occured. With out extensive genetic testing there is no way to know. Think about breast cancer in humans, they now have a genetic test that will tell you if you posses the particular gene thought to cause it. 20 years ago this was unheard of.

I personally will not cull the entire line because they may carry a gene that might cause a deformity (most people do not). How do the rest of you feel about it, breeders or not. If you produced an animal that was deformed would you sell the siblings or parents? Would you allow the siblings to enter the breeding gene pool, either your own or another persons?

just because you get one or more deformed babies does not mean its genetic it could be just incubation issues or even development issues with the eggs inside the mother

[Eventide]

Some one stated that the hypothetical deformed baby "just lost the genetic lottery" but what that really means is most likely somewhere along that particular babies lineage one or more of it's parents, gparents...ect, carries the gene for what ever deformity has occured. With out extensive genetic testing there is no way to know. Think about breast cancer in humans, they now have a genetic test that will tell you if you posses the particular gene thought to cause it. 20 years ago this was unheard of.

But not every deformity is genetic, i.e. not every deformity is something that was passed down from the parents. Some are completely random. Now, a mutation being "random" does not mean that it cannot be passed down with the offspring (doesn't mean that it can, either).

...and also what Nixer said.

EDIT: I will soon have some citations as to why freezing and/or refrigerating reptiles is inhumane and causes the reptiles great suffering.

[BallPythonGeek13]

i agree but some people just want all of there babys to live

[Eventide]

Citations, as promised (from my vet tech friend):

Quotes are from Reptile Medicine and Surgery, D. Mader, second edition, 2006

For reference the 2000 American Veterinary Medical Association Panel on Euthanasia was a panel formed of the foremost experts on reptile medicine and euthanasia in the country. If we can’t trust them, who do you trust?

Chapter 33

“The 2000 American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) Panel on Euthanasia has published several guidelines for euthanasia of reptiles”

“Rapid freezing, such as dipping in liquid nitrogen, is approved and effective in animals less than 40 grams. Larger species may not be rendered unconscious rapidly enough to prevent discomfort.”

“Reports have state that placement of a reptile in a conventional freezer is a viable technique for euthanasia (Frye, 1984). Cooper, Ewebank, and Rosenberg (1984) contest that the animals may experience pain as ice crystals form within the tissues and the skin. The AVMA Panel on Euthanasia does not consider this an acceptable or humane method for euthanasia, even if prior cooling is performed.”

American Veterinary Medical Association: 2000 Report of the AVMA panel on Euthanasia, Journal of the Veterinary Medical Association 218(5):669-696, 2001.

Frye FL: Eutahnasia, necropsy techniques and comparative histology of reptiles. In Hoff GL, Frye FL, Jacobson ER, editiors: Diseases of amphibians and reptiles, New York, 1984 Plenum Press.

Cooper JE, Ewebank R, Platt E., et al. Euthanasia of amphibians and reptiles, Potters Bar, England, 1989, Universities Federation for Animal Welfare.

It is against the law for vets to use freezing (other than liquid nitrogen as mentioned above) as a method for euthanasia.

Someone said this has been discussed before, and I don't mean for the thread to get too far off topic, but it was brought up.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Yeah, I have to say, the idea that freezing is a humane method of euthanasia for reptiles isn't borne out by any actual science. Freezing is a painful and relatively slow way to die. I would never freeze any animal to kill it.

If you have to euthanize a reptile, please do research on it first, and do so humanely.

I see no reason not to try to save hatchlings with minor to moderate deformities. Most of them will go to a pet home if they can be saved. Caramels with extremely severe kinks have shown to be viable and live normally, so what looks terrible on the surface may not actually be life-threatening.

These things happen--through chance, through incubator temperature accidents, etc. When they happen, we're responsible for dealing with the consequences. I don't think it is right to kill something automatically simply because it is aberrant. If it proves not to be viable, then yes--but if it can actually live, then why NOT save it?

Now, for the person who said they would not breed the parents of a deformed animal together again...while I can sympathize with the sentiment of not wanting to chance having another animal like that again, in truth, it might be better to do exactly that. By pairing the same animals again, you will be able to determine whether or not the defective gene DID come from those animals. If no further deformities arise after several such pairings, you can probably assume the parents are clean. That's important for their future, and the future of the affected baby's siblings.

I also think it's important for breeders to learn about and recognize the genes that can cause specific deformities, so that carriers CAN be identified. Now that there is a lineage database available, if people are honest, it may be possible to avoid crossing carriers of these problem genes. When lineage is tracked, it is not always necessary to eliminate an animal that carries a problem gene from breeding--it just means avoiding breeding it or its offspring to another carrier. We are a long way off from genetic testing for specific problem genes. These tests exist for other species (such as cattle), but I don't think there's an economic incentive yet to have them for ball pythons, even if they could be devised.

More openness about genetic problems could arise when more information about them is available--it will no longer be easy for breeders to simply claim ignorance when selling an animal with a possible hidden genetic problem. The high dollar values involved, and the lack of knowledge about the problem genes, encourages this at the moment. Hopefully that will not always be the case.

[Jay_Bunny]

Don't flatter yourself. Although I must admit, you did remind me of the subject.

Hey, I didn't mean it in a bad way. I'm glad you posted this thread as it makes for a good discussion. I just knew I'd been posting a lot on my little hatchling and several people have been telling me to put him down but I keep trying to save him.

[wilomn]

Citations, as promised (from my vet tech friend):

Quote:
Quotes are from Reptile Medicine and Surgery, D. Mader, second edition, 2006

For reference the 2000 American Veterinary Medical Association Panel on Euthanasia was a panel formed of the foremost experts on reptile medicine and euthanasia in the country. If we can’t trust them, who do you trust?

Chapter 33

“The 2000 American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) Panel on Euthanasia has published several guidelines for euthanasia of reptiles”

“Rapid freezing, such as dipping in liquid nitrogen, is approved and effective in animals less than 40 grams. Larger species may not be rendered unconscious rapidly enough to prevent discomfort.”

“Reports have state that placement of a reptile in a conventional freezer is a viable technique for euthanasia (Frye, 1984). Cooper, Ewebank, and Rosenberg (1984) contest that the animals may experience pain as ice crystals form within the tissues and the skin. The AVMA Panel on Euthanasia does not consider this an acceptable or humane method for euthanasia, even if prior cooling is performed.”

American Veterinary Medical Association: 2000 Report of the AVMA panel on Euthanasia, Journal of the Veterinary Medical Association 218(5):669-696, 2001.

Frye FL: Eutahnasia, necropsy techniques and comparative histology of reptiles. In Hoff GL, Frye FL, Jacobson ER, editiors: Diseases of amphibians and reptiles, New York, 1984 Plenum Press.

Cooper JE, Ewebank R, Platt E., et al. Euthanasia of amphibians and reptiles, Potters Bar, England, 1989, Universities Federation for Animal Welfare.
It is against the law for vets to use freezing (other than liquid nitrogen as mentioned above) as a method for euthanasia.

Someone said this has been discussed before, and I don't mean for the thread to get too far off topic, but it was brought up.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the above is a quote from a previous post that I could not use the quote feature of this site to copy



I'd like to see the law that says it's illegal.

Also, do you see that key word MAY?

That means they don't know for sure.

My guess is that an animal in pain would not sit still, even if it were cold. We've all seen snakes that were far too cold to be healthy moving quite well.

Short of taking a hammer and doing some skull crushing, I'll stick with what I, personally as well as the vet I've been using for many many years, think is a good method for killing those who need to be dead.

I don't know who the vets you quoted are nor do I know their affiliations. For all I know they're petaphiles or work for hsus.

You can ALWAYS find some expert who agrees with your stand, no matter which side of an issue you're on.

I've put animals in the freezer, positioned as comfortably as I can make their final minutes, come back hours later to find them frozen solid in the EXACT same position that I left them in. This says to me that there was no pain involved in the deep cold sleep I put them into.

I HAVE seen snakes writhing in pain. I have NOT seen this in my freezer.

[monk90222]

I don't know who in their right mind would cull a perfectly healthy baby for that reason anyway thats just absurd.

I've heard of one breeder (has a bad name in the industry) who puts all normal males in the freezer.