Put it down already

[Eventide]

I believe in giving an animal every chance possible to live. Doesn't matter if the snake has one eye, no eyes, kinks--whatever. It's not the snake's fault it's deformed.

Now, if the deformity is severely interfering with the snake's quality of life, then yes, humane euthanization is necessary. I do not wish any animal to suffer just because I want it to survive.

And no, putting it in the freezer is not a humane way of euthanizing a reptile. Reptiles take much longer to die in the freezer than mammals due to their slower metabolism. I would never want to make a reptile suffer like that.

Also, I don't think severe deformities should be bred and/or sold. If I were to breed some pythons and find that one or both of the parents were passing on deformities, I would figure out which parent it is and stop breeding that snake, and I would either keep the deformed offspring or give them to loving homes as pets. We, as breeders, do have a responsibility for passing on only the most healthy of snakes as future breeders.

[Foschi Exotic Serpents]

Sort of on topic. What are your opinions on people selling their deformed animals? There are a few ads on kingsnake now of people selling animals that are missing an eye. I personally cull deformed animals as soon as they are out of the egg.

Wow, i saw that add on kingsnake and i know who you are talking about.. Not personally, but he has delt with my 2 friends that are breeders.. I was surprised to see that add as well. As far as my friends (the breeders) are concerned, it shouldnt be allowed to be that way... They say yes its sometimes a hard decision but when you really care about the welfare of the animal and the entire genus as a whole, you dont let the seriously deformed ones out in public, where they may fall into the hands of someone who will breed it and pass on genetic problems..

I personally would find it hard to put down any animal but if its necessary i will. I had to put down an older painted turtle i had due to a blockage she had and she was suffering.. As for spiders.. I cant comment on that seeing as im getting a Bee.. But i will not be putting it to another spider or spider morph. I simply would not do that and risk creating snakes with serious problems.. Just my opinion..

[jglass38]

As for spiders.. I cant comment on that seeing as im getting a Bee.. But i will not be putting it to another spider or spider morph. I simply would not do that and risk creating snakes with serious problems.. Just my opinion..

Not really going to make a difference unfortunately. All Spiders are at least slightly tweaked. Sometimes it is so subtle that it's hard to notice. You'll have the chance of producing tweaked babies from pairing that bee with anything.

[Foschi Exotic Serpents]

Not really going to make a difference unfortunately. All Spiders are at least slightly tweaked. Sometimes it is so subtle that it's hard to notice. You'll have the chance of producing tweaked babies from pairing that bee with anything.

True. But i have read that if the wobble or spins, is noticable, the chances of it being even more noticable in the offspring can go up with each generation (if inbreeding). If the defects are not noticable in the parent snake then the babies are less likely to have a noticable defect. Im guessing this is just a theory as ive not seen any real evidence of breeding to prove this point.. But the bee im buying is very close to breeding size and shows no noticable signs of wobble or defect. So im hoping that will pas on to her babies..

[jglass38]

True. But i have read that if the wobble or spins, is noticable, the chances of it being even more noticable in the offspring can go up with each generation (if inbreeding). If the defects are not noticable in the parent snake then the babies are less likely to have a noticable defect. Im guessing this is just a theory as ive not seen any real evidence of breeding to prove this point.. But the bee im buying is very close to breeding size and shows no noticable signs of wobble or defect. So im hoping that will pas on to her babies..

Do you have a link to where you read that? I would guess you're right that it's just a theory. Best of luck with the breedings!

[Hock3ymonk3y]

A question that I would ask myself is

"Would it survive in the wild?"

If the answer is no then it is a candidate for euthanasia....

An albino would probably not live in the wild..... choose your words more carefully.

I totally agree with you mike, some babies were not meant to live...

[jglass38]

An albino would probably not live in the wild..... choose your words more carefully.

I'm pretty sure you know what he meant. He meant a defect or deformity that would keep it from being able to successfully survive in the wild.

[Foschi Exotic Serpents]

Hi, talking about putting down, which are your methods? Which do you think is the most humain?

Thank you and sorry for hijack ur post

I know people who just put it in the freezer until its no longer alive. I personally dont do that. Being a reptile, i feel if its put in the fridge first its more humane. Puts them into a fast forced hibernation and they just fall asleep. I think putting them directly in the freezer would painful as the blood in their veins begins to freeze while they are still alive.. This is just the way i think of it but im sure many people will disagree..

As for people cutting eggs. I dont agree with that at all. At least one baby will be able to pip the egg itself. If not most or all of them. I dont think an egg should be cut until after the first couple pips. Then the "cutting" should not be a butcher job that opens up the egg completely. Only widening the slit the baby already made so it doesnt get stuck, and making a split slit in the eggs that have not pipped in case the baby lost an eggtooth. But never cutting open the entire top of the egg.

There is a breeder on my friends list on myspace that i was very disappointed in when i saw he was cutting eggs before the first pip just to have the babies out in time for the show.. Thats not right and bad business practice. Im glad this person made it public though. Now i know who NOT to buy from..

[jglass38]

As for people cutting eggs. I dont agree with that at all. At least one baby will be able to pip the egg itself. If not most or all of them. I dont think an egg should be cut until after the first couple pips. Then the "cutting" should not be a butcher job that opens up the egg completely. Only widening the slit the baby already made so it doesnt get stuck, and making a split slit in the eggs that have not pipped in case the baby lost an eggtooth. But never cutting open the entire top of the egg.

There is a breeder on my friends list on myspace that i was very disappointed in when i saw he was cutting eggs before the first pip just to have the babies out in time for the show.. Thats not right and bad business practice. Im glad this person made it public though. Now i know who NOT to buy from..

I don't understand exactly what your issue is with cutting. There is a big difference between a breeder that cuts eggs and one that cuts eggs and pulls the babies out before they are ready. I cut eggs. Every clutch, every time. I can guarantee you that the hatchlings won't come out until they are ready, regardless of what day I cut. I would never pull them out of the egg though.

[kellysballs]

Okay here is how I feel about the issue.

I think if the deformity makes the animal unable to eat, breathe, deficate or move the animal should be humanly euthanized. (Not frozen that is another whole thread in itself).

Here is my issue with deformities (and it will probably ruffle some feathers). I am sure that all of us can agree that defomities in ball pythons are more prevalant in certain morphs. Now if that is true, wouldn't that make most of the deformities "genetic"? I understand that there can be incubation issues but you can't say that all 8ball duck bills, carmel kinks, spider wobbles, missing and deformed eyes are all due to improper incubation.

Now most breeders on here are stating that they cull severly deformed animals, and all of us pretty much agree that the deformed animal should not be bred. Here is the question...What about the parents, grandparents and siblings of these animals.

If as stated before the deformed animal may pass on the trait, that means it aquired the trait in the first place from one or more of it's parents or grandparents, and that it's siblings may also carry the deformed trait hidden away in their genes. So unless you cull the entire line that produced the deformity you are adding possible carriers of deformities on to future generations.

In reality very VERY few people will do this, all breeders have money invested in their animals (no matter if it is a hobby or business). Unfortunatley it is par for the course when working with genetic mutations. I have heard the "morphs came from the wild" alot, but if you think about it ALL morphs are in one way or the other a mutation of the commonly occuring wild type ball python.

I personally don't have a problem with genetic mutation I find it extremely facinating and I LOVE breeding my ball pythons. I just wanted to share my opinion on the subject and I hope that no one feels I am attacking them in anyway.