Put it down already

[ladywhipple02]

You say your snake has "trouble getting around" what exactly does this mean?

Have you considered that maybe the reason it chooses not to move around much is because it experiences pain when it does?

You say it is sweet and one of the nicest snake you have? what behaviors / and or / characteristics in your opinion make it "sweet and nice?"

Disclaimer... this is not a personal attack... just a reply to what you posted.

When I said she has trouble getting around: she doesn't NOT move. When you pick her up, she coils tightly, as if afraid of being dropped. You literally have to unwrap her from around your arm when you set her down. When you set her down, she coils around herself... it's like she has trouble unwinding. You can help her or leave her to her own devices, and she's goes where she wants (she can climb, etc).

As for being "sweet and nice", yes, I was anthropomorphizing an animal that doesn't feel these emotions. These are things that I feel towards her because she has never hissed or tried to take a swing at me. I have taken her to shows for educational purposes, she is fine being handled by others. That's my definition.

I guess my point is this: every single one of us plays God just a little bit when we put two viable animals together. Natural selection doesn't play into it at all... natural selection didn't put those two animals together. So, if we as we are responsible for creating the babies that pip, aren't we responsible for taking care of them? All of them?

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not going to let a creature suffer. If it literally can't move or take care of itself at all, then yes, by all means, your responsibility to that animal is to end its suffering!

It IS a case by case basis...

[Turbo Serpent]

True, but by breeding spiders you increase the chances of it happening from almost none (i've NEVER hatched a normal or another co-dom with Neuro problems) to very high. We decided not to work with the spider morph but thats just a personal choice. Let me put this to you:

If people are willing to accept spiders as "ok" then will this lead to/has this lead to the acceptance of other flaws for the sake of beauty?

Is your definition of a flaw anything that would hinder it in the wild? If that is the case almost every morph would fall into this category.

The Normal/Wild Type is that way for a reason. It is perfectly camouflaged for its habitat. An albino is going to stand out like a sore thumb, as would a BEL, or any other bright BP. Easier for a predator to spot their bright beautiful meal.

So by your comments should we simply cull all of our morphs because they may not have survived in the wild?

If we get into Natural Selection... most of the animals we breed shouldn't survive/exist or be as large as they become as fast, because meals aren't always readily available, nor are there frozen thawed rats in the wild. Captivity changes everything.

[h00blah]

i havent read the entire thread, and i dont breed snakes, so idk if its worth anyones time to read wut I think, BUT:

i definately agree it's case by case. depending on how severe the "deformation" or "flaw" is, if its suffering, or if it cant eat on its own, or cant move, then put it down.

also, if I was breeding snakes, i would probably do EVERYTHING in my power to keep my babies alive, bc if YOU yourself put your hard work, dedication, time, and sweat into raising those adults to breed, praying for fertilized eggs, incubating those eggs, monitoring them closely, then awaiting that adorable little BP head to poke its head at you and greet u, rite there, uve gotten attached to the animal and u WILL do wut u need to in order to save it.

[mason]

Is your definition of a flaw anything that would hinder it in the wild? If that is the case almost every morph would fall into this category.

The Normal/Wild Type is that way for a reason. It is perfectly camouflaged for its habitat. An albino is going to stand out like a sore thumb, as would a BEL, or any other bright BP. Easier for a predator to spot their bright beautiful meal.

So by your comments should we simply cull all of our morphs because they may not have survived in the wild?

If we get into Natural Selection... most of the animals we breed shouldn't survive/exist or be as large as they become as fast, because meals aren't always readily available, nor are there frozen thawed rats in the wild. Captivity changes everything.

Please donj't twist my words. MY definition of a flaw is something that makes a royal unable to act in it's normal manner or obvious things like deformity.

Your argument about morphs is rediculous, for starters royals will, in the wild, spend 80-90%+ of their time underground. How exactly do you think these morphs came to captivity? You think every single wild caught morph is a young hatchling? Well I can tell you there are WC ADULT, sub adult, yearling and hatchling morphs coming out of africa every year, MANY morphs first hit the scene as a WC adult. There was a good sized (8-900G WC albino male sold only this year in the UK. Fresh import. EVERY year you can aquire (if you have the contacts and the money) PLENTY of WC pastels, ghosts, basic co-doms and basic recessive morphs. They Can and do survive in the wild.

I'm not talking about natural selection, nor having the captivity/nature argument.

But to answer your question succinctly: No, I do not mean anything that would hamper it in the wild (not that I consider being a different colour a problem for this species!). I mean anything that means the ball python cannot behave like a royal python be that neurological or physical.

[Wh00h0069]

Sort of on topic. What are your opinions on people selling their deformed animals? There are a few ads on kingsnake now of people selling animals that are missing an eye. I personally cull deformed animals as soon as they are out of the egg.

[mason]

Sort of on topic. What are your opinions on people selling their deformed animals? There are a few ads on kingsnake now of people selling animals that are missing an eye. I personally cull deformed animals as soon as they are out of the egg.

We cull too if the need arises.

I keep retics along with the balls etc and seeing one eyed albinos for sale (mainly retics and burms, but some boas too) really saddens me, because the breeder tries to justify it by selling it a bit cheaper, but all this does it pretty much guarantee it's going to end up with someone who wants it for breeding which tucks the problem away for another breeder to deal with by producing what must effectively be considered poss het blind/poss het one eyed snakes!

But then things like this are exactly why (assuming you care about quality when it comes to your breeding animals and pets) buying from a trusted source should always be a higher priority than finding x animal/morph as cheaply as possible.

Good little on-topic-ish point that, the whole one eyed thing is quite common and must be considered one of the flaws that breeders should definately try not to encourage!

[ladywhipple02]

Sort of on topic. What are your opinions on people selling their deformed animals? There are a few ads on kingsnake now of people selling animals that are missing an eye. I personally cull deformed animals as soon as they are out of the egg.

I think a responsible breeder would not sell them. Or, if they do sell them, they know who they are selling them to, and for what purposes... ie, they sell them as pets ONLY, and NOT for profit. A good breeder is going to take a little time with their customers, anyway, so putting a little extra effort into making sure a snake gets a good, stable home shouldn't be that big a deal.

[Turbo Serpent]

Please donj't twist my words. MY definition of a flaw is something that makes a royal unable to act in it's normal manner or obvious things like deformity.

Your argument about morphs is rediculous, for starters royals will, in the wild, spend 80-90%+ of their time underground. How exactly do you think these morphs came to captivity? You think every single wild caught morph is a young hatchling? Well I can tell you there are WC ADULT, sub adult, yearling and hatchling morphs coming out of africa every year, MANY morphs first hit the scene as a WC adult. There was a good sized (8-900G WC albino male sold only this year in the UK. Fresh import. EVERY year you can aquire (if you have the contacts and the money) PLENTY of WC pastels, ghosts, basic co-doms and basic recessive morphs. They Can and do survive in the wild.

I'm not talking about natural selection, nor having the captivity/nature argument.

But to answer your question succinctly: No, I do not mean anything that would hamper it in the wild (not that I consider being a different colour a problem for this species!). I mean anything that means the ball python cannot behave like a royal python be that neurological or physical.

Only part of my argument was directed at you, and yes I understand that morphs come from the wild and that most of them are adults, I was simply trying to understand what you mean by flaws.

And most of the combos and supers we have, were created by our breedings and have never existed in the wild because of the rare possibility of morphs to pair and copulate in the wild.

I honestly have yet to produce any deformities so I have no personal experience with culling any of my animals, but if and when something happens I am not going to perpetuate the deformities in our hobby, it will be in my freezer.

[oliverstwist]

ij ustread five pages of posting and all i have to say is =I agree but qre you saying that Goober should have been culled?

[Jay_Bunny]

It is my first year breeding ball pythons and I'm guessing my issue with my hatchling contributed to your need to post this thread. So I feel I need to respond.

I fully agree that once it is obvious an animal is suffering, humanely euthanizing it is the best thing for it. This is true for severely deformed animals that have no chance of living a comfortable life.

Now, in the case of my hatchling, Rubiix, he has shown he has a will to live and I was told not to give up until it was obvious there was no saving him. Today I'm taking him to be fed by a pinky pump. He will also be tube fed. If it becomes obvious that he can't move food into his stomach or at the end of 1-2 weeks he hasn't gained any weight back, I will take him to the vet to be humanely euthanized. (I will not put a live animal in a freezer. This is my own belief and opinion, please do not tell me to do otherwise). I made the choice to breed my snakes and I am responsible for the hatchlings in every way, including ending their suffering if need be. For now, I'm still going to give him a last chance. Maybe I'm just one of those nature lovers that finds a miracle in every breath of life and this little hatchling is a miracle to me. I owe it to him to make every effort to help him survive and I also owe it to him to let him go if he decides he doesn't want to fight anymore. Some of you may say, he's just a snake, but to me, he's the first snake I ever hatched out. He's special to me and I am very attached to him.