Put it down already

[Wh00h0069]

All the people making accusations about breeders freezing their healthy normal males, who are the breeders? Can you substantiate your claims? From what I understand most big breeders sell them to pet stores.

[NorthernRegius]

The first thing I looked for PRIOR to breeding was buyers for the babies- Especially the normals. I'd no sooner put down a Healthy animal than shoot my foot! IMHO that's not the way to do things- I've always seen the higher cost we pay for "fancy snakes" aka morphs as a way to cover the overhead of producing normals. It's also why I think many of the base morph snakes produced today are sold way too cheaply.

Most on my normals are sold at wholesale to my local shop here after their 3rd meal. I'm lucky to break even on normals... if you don't count the time involved. But they are great snakes, well started on rats & my buyer will take anything he can get from me because the animals do well. I have him give out a NorthernRegius Key Chain with each snake & a care-sheet, so if the buyer has questions or is looking for morphs they'll see the care I put into all my babies. We may put a price-tag on the paint-jobs but life is life. Killing a perfectly healthy animal?!! Not in my little corner of the world!

[WingedWolfPsion]

I do understand why some people would want to believe that freezing is humane--it's inconvenient to believe otherwise.
I'll go out on a limb and point out that instantaneous destruction of the brain actually is humane, though never approved by any veterinary standard, because it is perceived as being brutal (I've never understood that one--cattle are bolted through the brain to kill them for slaughter, after all).

There are euthanasia drugs approved for use in reptiles, now, though. If someone has to put down an animal, and they truly want to be humane, they should probably not freeze it to death. Even the chance that this method is painful should be enough to make a person seek one of the several alternative methods that are known to not be painful. The way it's always been done is not always the right way...or even usually the right way. Look how far we've come with reptile care in the past few decades.

As for normal males, that is part of the operating expenses of being a breeder. There are always people who want a nice pet python. Some of mine go to a local pet store, and some are sold directly. Down the road, I will probably find either more pet stores or a wholesaler to sell them to. I do have high standards, though, and I will be sniffing them out thoroughly before I let my babies go there. If that means keeping and feeding normal males for a while before I find buyers, well, that's a few more rats, and morph prices can easily absorb the costs of that. Someone whose ONLY interest is the bottom line should not be allowed to own animals at all, in my opinion.

[jglass38]

I've heard of one breeder (has a bad name in the industry) who puts all normal males in the freezer.

You've heard of that person also?? Weird!

[jglass38]

All the people making accusations about breeders freezing their healthy normal males, who are the breeders? Can you substantiate your claims? From what I understand most big breeders sell them to pet stores.

Eddie: It's not necessary for anyone to disclose who the person is. All I will say is that the person isn't a "big breeder" and already has a suspect rep. To disclose the name would do nothing but open people up to legal trouble.

[jglass38]

I do understand why some people would want to believe that freezing is humane--it's inconvenient to believe otherwise.
I'll go out on a limb and point out that instantaneous destruction of the brain actually is humane, though never approved by any veterinary standard, because it is perceived as being brutal (I've never understood that one--cattle are bolted through the brain to kill them for slaughter, after all).

There are euthanasia drugs approved for use in reptiles, now, though. If someone has to put down an animal, and they truly want to be humane, they should probably not freeze it to death. Even the chance that this method is painful should be enough to make a person seek one of the several alternative methods that are known to not be painful. The way it's always been done is not always the right way...or even usually the right way. Look how far we've come with reptile care in the past few decades.

As for normal males, that is part of the operating expenses of being a breeder. There are always people who want a nice pet python. Some of mine go to a local pet store, and some are sold directly. Down the road, I will probably find either more pet stores or a wholesaler to sell them to. I do have high standards, though, and I will be sniffing them out thoroughly before I let my babies go there. If that means keeping and feeding normal males for a while before I find buyers, well, that's a few more rats, and morph prices can easily absorb the costs of that. Someone whose ONLY interest is the bottom line should not be allowed to own animals at all, in my opinion.

Just to play devil's advocate here, it seems that you may not be existing in the same real world that others inhabit. While it may be affordable for you to take the one baby you produce every year (if that) that needs to be culled to a vet for "humane" euthanasia, it wouldn't be affordable for the intermediate breeders who do 70 clutches and produce 7 babies that need to be culled or the big breeder who does 500 clutches and produces 50 babies that need to be culled. Now I am clearly just pulling numbers out of my butt, but I think the logic is there.

I am not saying I disagree with all of your post, just playing devil's advocate as I tend to do.

Wes made some good points (yes, the snowball fight in hell is on for this weekend!). First, there are two sides to every argument. Whether in science, politics or at the office water cooler. Who do we believe? Second, he stated that he has put animals with full range of movement in a freezer and they were in the same position when he looked at them after they were dead. One would think that an animal in pain would writhe around and change positions, not lay there quietly. How do we explain that?

[Muze]

Interesting thread, I haven't read the whole thread yet so please excuse me if this has been covered already. My question is where do you draw the line?

Should I freeze this one? She seems healthy and active but she's missing an eye. Eyes on snakes are overrated so it probably shouldn't cause her any problems though I'll never be able to sell her.



Should I have tried to save this one? It was born alive, had no eyes, a deformed jaw, and quite a bit of kinking and had the belly attached back to itself in a few places. I snapped some pics and put it in the freezer.



How about this one? It's a normal male from one of my dinking around projects. This guy has some head rub from trying to test the limits of his shoe box. It'll likely disappear after several sheds, but it's going to make it very difficult to sell even though he eats well and has a great calm yet inquisitive personality. There are plenty of breeders that will stick healthy normal males in the freezer as a matter of course just because they're harder to sell and you can't make any money off of them so why waste the resources?



So what do you euthanize? What are the criteria and who makes the decisions? I'm also very active in the local reptile adoption program through our herp society. We have ball pythons coming in every month, and fortunately we've been able to find homes for all of them, but there are other species like green iguanas and Burmese pythons where we HAVE had to put down some individuals because we were not able to place them after many months. I can foresee a time where that may become necessary for ball pythons too.

I'll keep it simple:

Would not euthanize the one with the missing eye.
Actually have euthanized one with very similar deformities to the one you had to put down.
I sell my males to the local reptile store (they are friends of mine that care very much about their animals). However, I adopted a male from a member here because I wanted to buy his rack system but he needed to move very soon so I agreed to take the BP. He will most probably always be with me because I have grown attached to him and it's hard to find good home for adult males.
I am thoroughly disgusted about the rumor that some breeder(s) place males in the freezer (makes no sense to me really).
If it is obviously going to suffer (not be able to eat, move, etc.) it needs to be put down. But sometimes it's not so obvious and deserves a chance. I say one has to use logic, common sense, and heart to make these decisions.

[MarkS]

Mark my answer to your questions in my opinion.

The second one that is all jacked up... i would defiantely have put that one down because it obviously would never live a normal happy life.

The third one with the head sore. I would definately NOT put that one down. There is nothing wrong with that snake other then a little skin blemish. It will no doubt live and function like a normal BP its entire life. If you don't want it, it shouldn't be hard to find someone that will come take him from you for free.

The first one with the missing eye. That is a tricky one, and in a situation like that it should be up to the breeder and the breeders lifetime plan for the snake.

That said if it were mine, It would have been frozen... Not so much because of it being an ugly snake, but because I would always suspect possible other damage and / or discomfort. This is what i would think - what if that missing eye is because of an overall skull deformation? It wouldnt be too far stretched to consider the fact that something like that can cause pressure in the snakes head that is out of the ordinary. That pressure can certainly cause discomfort. What if every day of that snakes life it has HORRIBLE headaches as result? As long as it keeps eating, you would never know if it were suffering or not. That uncertainty for me would be enough reason to freeze.


And for those that think freezing is so inhumane... PLEASE share what in your opinion would be a MORE humane way of putting a hatchling down?

That 1st one I do plan on keeping around for a while. She certainly doesn't appear to be in any pain. She's a new hatchling and is just going through her first shed now so I'll see how she eats afterward and make a determination at that time. She's already got a name though so I'll probably keep her and use her in educational shows.

The third one I don't plan on killing either, though over the years I've been getting more and more leery of the 'free' option. It's sad but often true that many people seem to equate 'cost' with 'value' so therefore a free snake has less value to them then one that they may have spent a lot of money on and so may receive lesser quality care. I've given away quite a few free snakes through the years and it does seem to me that when I inquire about them later that the free ones seem to have a higher mortality rate then the ones people have paid for.

The second one was never a question in my mind. I couldn't get him in the freezer fast enough, it was almost painful watching him trying to move. And yes, I do believe that freezing is a viable and humane option for euthanasia. Maybe not for warm blooded creatures, but for cold blooded creatures I have no problem with it.

[Eventide]

Also, do you see that key word MAY?

That means they don't know for sure.

Indeed it does.

Particulate substrate may cause impactions and eye infections. Pine bedding may be unhealthy for your snake. Hot rocks or under-tank heaters may overheat and burn your snake. And yet, if anyone here were to house their reptile on particulate substrate with a hot rock, they'd be verbally smacked up one side and down the other. Why is this particular "may" different?

My guess is that an animal in pain would not sit still, even if it were cold. We've all seen snakes that were far too cold to be healthy moving quite well.

You don't like "may" suffer, but you'd rather go with "my guess" than experts in reptile medicine?

Ever tried to type when your hands are cold? Kinda hard to move them, isn't it? And we're mammals--we create our own body heat! What about an animal whose body temperature is basically a slave to environmental temperature? Do you seriously think that not moving = no brain function? Try putting one of your snakes in a 40- or 50-degree room and see how much the snake moves. Do you think that the snake isn't feeling discomfort?

What about the time it takes for the snake to reach freezing? Ever put a bottle of water in the freezer? It takes a long time for it to freeze solid. What about the time it takes for the cold to actually kill the snake? This isn't some instantaneous thing like liquid nitrogen!

I'd like to see a cold snake moving well. Dig up a rattlesnake during the winter here. Let me tell you, they can barely move. (Note that the winter temperatures here rarely go below zero.)

I don't know who the vets you quoted are nor do I know their affiliations. For all I know they're petaphiles or work for hsus.

Actually, their names are right there. That's the awesome thing about citations: you can go look them up for yourself and find their credentials.

You can ALWAYS find some expert who agrees with your stand, no matter which side of an issue you're on.

How many experts agreeing does it take, then?

I've put animals in the freezer, positioned as comfortably as I can make their final minutes, come back hours later to find them frozen solid in the EXACT same position that I left them in. This says to me that there was no pain involved in the deep cold sleep I put them into.

I HAVE seen snakes writhing in pain. I have NOT seen this in my freezer.

Again, see my notes above. Not moving does not equal not in pain. Not moving does not equal not suffering. Your argument makes no logical sense.

---

I've read others' arguments here--similar ones, I might add--arguing for freezing and arguing that having to take an animal to a vet to have it put down gets expensive. Quite frankly, that is a terrible excuse. You'd rather make your pets suffer (or possibly make your pets suffer) just because it's easier and cheaper for you? Why is this okay, but putting multiple snakes in the same enclosure because it's cheaper for you bad? Or why is this okay, but trying to treat a severe medical problem yourself without vet help because it's cheaper a terrible thing to do? Don't we all say many, many times that people should not be in the hobby if they don't first and foremost care for the animals?

I'm sorry, but no matter how many animals I have to put down, I'm taking them to my vet for proper euthanization. That's part of the cost of breeding reptiles, just like bedding, housing, heat, food, etc., and I will absolutely not cut corners on care just because it's cheaper or easier for me.

[wilomn]

15??? All I am saying is there are people who will take Male Norms. There is not need to freeze them unless you are a huge breeder.

Daniel

AH HA!!!
I am sooo bad with names. I knew you irritated me from somewhere.

I'll just leave you be.

I'm sorry

Apology accepted but there is still no excuse for your condemnation of those who DARE to think and do other than as you approve.

What, exactly, makes you better?