Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

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Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx

I am delighted to hear that you consider yourself "...... one of the strongest and most vocal supporters for ethical and humane treatment of feeders......" I consider myself not only to be one of the strongest and most vocal supporters for ethical and humane treatment of feeders, I also put my strong and vocal support into action.

With that said, I am curious why you don't use a CO2 canister? Is it the cost or inconvenience? Or is it that you feel that dry ice is as equally humane as a CO2 canister?

Tyer

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I don't believe I mentioned what I use.

We do feed the majority of our snakes live. For the rats older than weaners, they are gassed in a chamber much like the one pictured above with the hose and canister.

Being said, we find it more economical to use a canister of gas. But yes, I do feel the dry ice method is just as humane.

Wow! Thanks so much Brad! This thread is extremely useful!

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Simply put, they do not say it is inhumane to use dry ice, rather, they say it is not acceptable because of the lack of being able to control the CO2.

That is a difference, and I believe if it were viewed as inhumane, they would have clearly written it as so, and I have been trying to point out.

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Okay, so we're getting somewhere LIG.

AVMA says it is not acceptable to use dry ice.....can you state with 100% certainty that it is humane to do so?

Can you control the rate of CO2 with dry ice?

Can you control the rate of CO2 with canister?

Can you control them equally as well?

Is using dry ice equally humane to using CO2 canisters?

I enjoy talking to you.

Tyler:)

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Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx

Okay, so we're getting somewhere LIG.

AVMA says it is not acceptable to use dry ice.....can you state with 100% certainty that it is humane to do so?

Can you control the rate of CO2 with dry ice?

Can you control the rate of CO2 with canister?

Can you control them equally as well?

Is using dry ice equally humane to using CO2 canisters?

I enjoy talking to you.

Tyler:)

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I'm glad you enjoy talking with me, because I certainly feel like a broken record.

If you can't see my reasons for what I believe after I have laid them out very neatly several times, then I can't continue this discussion without re-repeating everything I have already said in response to your same questions.

Just this, where do they explicitly say it is inhumane to use dry ice?

And that is the point.
:twocents:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I'm glad you enjoy talking with me, because I certainly feel like a broken record.

If you can't see my reasons for what I believe after I have laid them out very neatly several times, then I can't continue this discussion without re-repeating everything I have already said in response to your same questions.

Just this, where do they explicitly say it is inhumane to use dry ice?

And that is the point.
:twocents:

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Connie,

That is one of the points....I agree. It says dry ice is unacceptable and how that can be construed as humane escapes me, but I'll move on.

I think I, and possibly others in this forum, would understand everything a little better if you just answered each of those questions one by one. This way everything is clearly understood about the differences between dry ice and canisters.

Have a nice day in Michigan. Sorry to say, I went to grad school at OSU.

Tyler

Connie,

I just visited your website, Metal Monkey Exotics, where you sell ball pythons and read this:


The following is not condoned by the AVMA:

The following methods still involve CO2, and are often the only means by which people are able to humanely euthanize rodents when the appropriate equipment is not available to them.

Dry Ice


Please note that you did underline the word not.

WOW!!! So you are saying that people should use Dry Ice when appropriate equipment is not available to them. You must mean CO2 canisters are appropriate and if it's not available, then what the heck, use dry ice even though it's not appropriate and not condoned by the AVMA.

You are obviously trying to fool others into thinking dry ice is acceptable because it's the only thing cheap enough and available enough for them to use, and that they should use it even though it is inappropriate equipment!!!

This explains everything! Thank you...your website said it all!

Tyler

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Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx

Connie,

I just visited your website, Metal Monkey Exotics, where you sell ball pythons and read this:


The following is not condoned by the AVMA:

The following methods still involve CO2, and are often the only means by which people are able to humanely euthanize rodents when the appropriate equipment is not available to them.

Dry Ice

Please note that you did underline the word not.

WOW!!! So you are saying that people should use Dry Ice when appropriate equipment is not available to them. You must mean CO2 canisters are appropriate and if it's not available, then what the heck, use dry ice even though it's not appropriate and not condoned by the AVMA.

You are obviously trying to fool others into thinking dry ice is acceptable because it's the only thing cheap enough and available enough for them to use, and that they should use it even though it is inappropriate equipment!!!

This explains everything! Thank you...your website said it all!

Tyler

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what happened to moving on?

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Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx

WOW!!! So you are saying that people should use Dry Ice when appropriate equipment is not available to them. You must mean CO2 canisters are appropriate and if it's not available, then what the heck, use dry ice even though it's not appropriate and not condoned by the AVMA.

You are obviously trying to fool others into thinking dry ice is acceptable because it's the only thing cheap enough and available enough for them to use, and that they should use it even though it is inappropriate equipment!!!

This explains everything! Thank you...your website said it all!

Tyler

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Tyler, I am confounded by your inability to process the situation. It's quite amazing to read after going back and forth for so long.

I am glad you visited my website, I am quite proud of it. :)

Now, you feel the need to accuse me of trying to fool people. I don't see how that is possible considering I have put citations from the AVMA guidelines to back up how I interpret the text. Someone trying to fool others certainly wouldn't cite anything now would they?

I feel I have a responsibility to clearly state in my article that the AVMA does not accept the use of CO2 from dry ice when I am instructing others to do so, because the context of the article depends heavily on the AVMA's guidelines. If I were to not put that disclaimer in dry ice section, I would be putting myself and my work in jeopardy for a number of legal reasons.

That is my answer. Plain and simple.

Now, reach up and get your head out of your ass for a moment and realize there are more shades of gray in this situation, and it shouldn't be construed as so black and white like you attempt to badger me with.

I still stand by my statements, that the use of dry ice is quite humane, and no where does the AVMA say otherwise.

Yes Tyler, I feel I have answered all of your questions quite appropriately, and you still have not answered mine.

I again suggest you slow down and read everything I have posted here. I think it is satisfactorily answered your repeated questions, yet you have not attempted to answer mine.

1. Where does the text say it is not humane? Have they listed reasons why?
2. Can you find concrete proof that the dry ice sublimation creates too little CO2 to fall within the guidelines of the AVMA article, or that the use of prefilling a container with CO2 from dry ice is also not within the guidelines?
3. Where in the text have they left any other forms of inhumane euthanasia without the text explicitly saying it is inhumane?

Connie,

On your website it is clearly written that the AVMA does NOT condone dry ice and you stated that dry ice is inappropriate equipment!!!

But according to you.....just ignore the two points above and go ahead, kill the mice with inappropriate equipment, and use that inappropriate equipment that the AVMA does not condone. And don't feel bad about it because it is not specifically written as being inhumane. Is it written that sticking pins and needles in the eyes of the mice is inhumane? NO!!!

Just because a method is not written as being inhumane, doesn't make it humane!!!

Why don't you just tell the readers of your website to use appropriate equipment (CO2 canisters) and use a method considered acceptable by the AVMA? I guess this is just an inconvenient truth.

John

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Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx

Connie,

On your website it is clearly written that the AVMA does NOT condone dry ice and you stated that dry ice is inappropriate equipment!!!

But according to you.....just ignore the two points above and go ahead, kill the mice with inappropriate equipment, and use that inappropriate equipment that the AVMA does not condone. And don't feel bad about it because it is not specifically written as being inhumane. Is it written that sticking pins and needles in the eyes of the mice is inhumane? NO!!!

Just because a method is not written as being inhumane, doesn't make it humane!!!

Why don't you just tell the readers of your website to use appropriate equipment (CO2 canisters) and use a method considered acceptable by the AVMA? I guess this is just an inconvenient truth.

John

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Hi John/Tyler,

I think I also stated why I feel it necessary to point people to the use of dry ice. I reach an international audience, and not everyone has the means to buy canisters of CO2. Also, because other methods I believe are inhumane or have a high margin of error that I can not in good conscience recommend.

I see this is really getting no where with you, I've decided you simply cannot grasp the concepts I am writing and laying out for you.

Good day

And if you ever feel compelled to answer these questions, here they are one more time:

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I again suggest you slow down and read everything I have posted here. I think it is satisfactorily answered your repeated questions, yet you have not attempted to answer mine.

1. Where does the text say it is not humane? Have they listed reasons why?

2. Can you find concrete proof that the dry ice sublimation creates too little CO2 to fall within the guidelines of the AVMA article, or that the use of prefilling a container with CO2 from dry ice is also not within the guidelines?

3. Where in the text have they left any other forms of inhumane euthanasia without the text explicitly saying it is inhumane?

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