Sad

Yes I am one of those people that would go ballistic if I knew somebody was running a puppy mill. I guess I'm kind of getting to the point where I feel like there's ball python mills [emoji47]
A lot of animals are exploited for money

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Originally Posted by Dianne

While I get what you are saying about “some” breeders, I don’t feel the broad generalization is fair to the good breeders and hobbiests who have a passion for their animals. There are breeders of many animal species that are in it for the money without consideration for the animals (i.e. puppy mills and back yard breeders). I also don’t feel it is accurate to say “many” of the morphs have genetic faults, as there are dozens if not hundreds of morph combinations, most of which are perfectly healthy.

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I respect the people that have a love and passion for what they're doing as long as they are making the snakes welfare priority

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

Yes I am one of those people that would go ballistic if I knew somebody was running a puppy mill. I guess I'm kind of getting to the point where I feel like there's ball python mills [emoji47]
A lot of animals are exploited for money


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Unfortunately, I think that you are right and there are ball python mills as well. Most of my snakes come from smaller hobbiest breeders, though I have one recent purchase from a well known breeder (Dynasty Reptiles), who I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase from again. I think the best we can do as keepers is to make sure we buy from reputable breeders who treat their animals well.

I agree....
And always report someone who is not treating an animal humanely no matter what it is

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Originally Posted by Dianne

Unfortunately, I think that you are right and there are ball python mills as well. Most of my snakes come from smaller hobbiest breeders, though I have one recent purchase from a well known breeder (Dynasty Reptiles), who I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase from again. I think the best we can do as keepers is to make sure we buy from reputable breeders who treat their animals well.

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

Since recently acquiring a very lovely banana ball python I have learned A LOT as far as all these morphs go. I had no idea of all the poor snakes that suffer. Are they in pain...I don't know but the person(s) that allow them to have such a disrespectful survival disgust me. The breeders in my opinion should have them humanely euthanized by a vet as soon as these terrible genetics are discovered and stop reproducing whatever morphs have such terrible results. The snakes deserve respect..
And after watching videos of the wobbles and terrible genetic defects all last night on Youtube, I honestly would have purchased a "normal wild" color instead of what I did. I do not think my boy is prone to getting those terrible genetics but let me tell you, I would not allow him to live such an unnatural existance with defects. He would be humanely euthanized.

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I misunderstood this. I thought you read somewhere that many banana ball pythons suffered to get the banana morph we have now.

No. Thank God!
I think we [emoji529] parents are ok

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Originally Posted by RickyNY

I misunderstood this. I thought you read somewhere that many banana ball pythons suffered to get the banana morph we have now.

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

There are a few breeders (very few) that I have seen that are actively trying to produce the morphs that display problems using different techniques during the incubation period to try to find out if lower heat and longer incubation times reduce or eliminate the defects. Olympus Reptiles is one of them. I haven’t been able to find out what the results were though. Has anyone heard?


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Matt is [...].

Yeah I watch their videos on YouTube but I don’t like the fact that you have to pay for the opportunity to purchase their snakes. I also don’t like the fact that they breed spiders in huge numbers. There are much better breeders out there.


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***I apologize now, word vomit ahead. TL;DR on morphs at the bottom***

I don't want to push the idea that there aren't bad breeders, and I definitely can't say that certain morphs don't have issues.

That being said, I don't feel as though spiders, or champagnes, or any other morphs shouldn't be reproduced. I've seen plenty of people bash breeders who work with these genes, and there are some bad apples that produce some horrible clutches, but I personally own 2 different snakes with the spider gene, one has absolutely zero detectable wobble, the other has a very mild wobble but it has in no way effected her ability to reach adulthood without any special accommodation, and both of them are some of the sweetest snakes I own.




As for Matt at Olympus Reptiles, I can't say he is perfect, but he is attempting to see if incubation temperature and time has an effect on the outcome of Super Black Pastels. It's something he has decided to do based on scientific research that he has done to see if that alleviates the issue, and if it doesn't he has plainly stated that he will not try the pairing again. I feel that is a fair judgement call, if he is able to produce Super Black Pastels successfully and it is repeatable, then the issues of that morph have been solved and there will be a way to produce these beautiful animals without causing undue suffering. Just the fact that Super Black Pastels exist proves that there is a way to produce them successfully and this may show a way.

And from what I've seen any spider morphs he has ever produced have little to no discernible wobble, so if he has good breeding stock that continues to make snakes with very little wobble, go for it, maybe we can eventually breed most of the wobble out of spiders.

Lastly, as far as having to join his Patreon to buy a snake from him, essentially he started offering the snakes he produced to his Patreon members first as a thank you for supporting his videos. The problem is that very few snakes made it past his Patreon supporters to be sold to the general public, so naturally more people joined his Patreon so that they could buy one of his animals instead of hoping it made it through the Patreon crowd. It's a vicious cycle that has snowballed as his channel and business has grown, and I don't see it as him taking advantage of people so much as people being impatient and unwilling to wait until his production numbers surpassed his Patreon supporter buying potential.




The other thing is this, there are over 300 base morphs for the ball python listed on the World of Ball Pythons "Morph List", and over 6600 "Designer" morphs, meaning 2 gene or greater combos. If out of all of those listed morphs, we can only list 10-12 morphs that have issues, and only a fraction of specimens that are produced actually show true detriments to the animals health or well being. Then why are morphs, in general, an issue?

In fact let's go a step further and consider the normals that are born with defects, either due to odd eggs or some sort of incubational issue. Should we stop breeding normals? Because with ANY captive bred animal there are TONS of possible reasons for deformities that can be just as bad, if not worse than, the worst spider wobbles out there.

We could say the exact same thing about bulldogs and their breathing problems, or labs and golden retrievers for their notorious hip issues as they get older, but most of those animals live long, healthy, happy lives without needing any help whatsoever. The same goes for the vast majority of snakes produced.


TL;DR : The number of spiders and similar wobble afflicted morphs that actually have a wobble bad enough to negatively effect the animals life are not nearly as high as it seems, because for every video of one badly effected snake there are hundreds, if not thousands that are perfectly fine, healthy, and happy. The owners of those animals just don't feel the need to advertise that their animal is healthy. Any captive bred species will have issues when being bred, whether producing genetic variants or not.

For what it's worth, I feel much better about buying from breeders than I would from other sources. It is up to the buyer to do research on both the animal they are acquiring and the breeder it's coming from. Ask questions. Arm yourself with knowledge. Know what questions you need to ask for peace of mind. The degree of organization and financial investment it takes to run a successful mid or large scale snake breeding operation is mind-boggling. Are there bad apples in the bunch? Yes, but this can be said about anything. You are obviously entitled to your opinion, and I also think normals are beautiful, but I think you're GREATLY overstating the dangers of morphs, especially as someone brand new to the hobby. I feel crappy about things too when I get sucked down YouTube rabbit holes. ;)

The OWAL list has been posted. It's a good source of information on known morph issues. There's another great resource out there: the BOI on Fauna Classifieds, where people can post the good AND bad about sellers. I think BOI is a testament to the hobby that most reptile keepers actually DO care about the well-being of the animals and positive experiences and want to hold each other accountable.