Absolutes in Reptile Care

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Originally Posted by darkbloodwyvern

And housing 2 snakes together is to me an absolute, especially now.
........ I won't rip anyone's face off for housing two together, but I certainly don't recommend it & will continue to recommend AGAINST it having experienced it briefly.

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Some people may have their own personal care preference. If you NEVER want to house two snakes together, that is fine. If you want to recommend against it, that is fine. If you want to tell others that there is no other way but to follow your personal absolutes, that is wrong.

That is one of the main points I was trying to get across. Our specific ways of keeping animals do not become a problem until they become stated as the only way to do something.

We stop progress in this hobby when we deal with too many of the false facts.

Housing snakes together is just one example.

Like I said before.....each reptile is different, each keeper is different and each situation is different.

Onto a different comment...

Tubs are best for snakes.

Do you know why are snakes housed in tubs and rack systems?? The system serves a purpose. Do you know what that purpose is? What makes it better than other methods?

I commonly see people use the comment "ball pythons live in burrows most of the time" when discussing tub housing methods. Ball pythons may live in burrows 'most' of the time in the wild, but they live in our care ALL of the time in captivity. What do ball pythons do when they are not in a burrow?

What if you provided an enclosure with a secure 'burrow' and access to 'above ground'? Wouldn't that be interesting? Think past being told that tubs make great enclosures......tubs and racks work great for what they were intended, but do not view them as a FINAL product(a.k.a. the absolute housing).....Find something that works better.

Like I have said previously, why did some people loose focus on exploring different methods and studying natrual history? Was it because methods were given as absolutes? Was it because expanding upon that knowledge became less interesting? More interest in genetics and morphs? Growing influence of commercial practices on hobby keepers?

I really do not know. I just want people to remember that they can explore more options in the way they care for their animals.

Sand is fine for almost any snake if it's the right kind of sand.

Pine is fine for almost any snake provided the pine is dry.

I don't remember the rest of the list someone posted as gospel, but to say I find it foolish is somewhat of an understatement.

I'm NOT saying you MUST, just that you can with NO ill effects.

Every single point I make has been proven with years of experience. My experience. When you can tell me that you have done the same and then prove that your outcome is different than mine, THEN you can talk absolutes and I won't call you a fool.

Until then, got to get some foolscaps made.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

3. Tubs are best for snakes.

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Originally Posted by cassandra

*grumble*

I hate that this is a "for granted" absolute...I hate having to stamp on my "glass soap box" on this website so often to fight for the right to safely and correctly house my PET snakes in glass...:mad:



But then Heather just cracks me up! :rofl:

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i agree cass what should of been said was tubs are easiest to keep snakes in not are best for snakes. i too hate having to argue about keeping my snakes in a tank, it may not be as easy as a tub but everything is spot on and my snakes LOVE it.

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

Absolutely no hot rocks or lights inside the cage.

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What if you run your hot rock on a thermostat and you have barriers around your lights?

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

everything is spot on and my snakes LOVE it.

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How do you know they love it?

i think the biggest thing that noone has even touched is , ALWAYS have a means of measuring,monitoring, and adjusting temps, (digi thermometers and thermostats), i think thats the biggest absolute of them all

Great post Dan:)
Here's some food for thought about the temperature/gradient issue. You hear much thrown around like, 92 hot side, 82 cool side, etc. Does anyone know the average temperatures for the area in Africa that balls come from?(Togo, Benin, Ghana). Here's a link to average temps for that region over the entire year:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/trave...omnav_business

As you can see temperatures vary quite a bit. The AVG daytime is upper 80's - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. The AVG nightime is mid 70's or so - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. And during the winter there it only gets to the low 80's and at night can get below low 70's - yet the seem to survive and thrive quite well under these conditions.

Not taking any sides here, just throwing out some different ideas.


Marc

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Originally Posted by MrShultzy

Great post Dan:)
Here's some food for thought about the temperature/gradient issue. You hear much thrown around like, 92 hot side, 82 cool side, etc. Does anyone know the average temperatures for the area in Africa that balls come from?(Togo, Benin, Ghana). Here's a link to average temps for that region over the entire year:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/trave...omnav_business

As you can see temperatures vary quite a bit. The AVG daytime is upper 80's - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. The AVG nightime is mid 70's or so - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. And during the winter there it only gets to the low 80's and at night can get below low 70's - yet the seem to survive and thrive quite well under these conditions.

Not taking any sides here, just throwing out some different ideas.

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It is great food for thought Marc.

Using that temp information can be helpful....IF you understand nature.

With an average daytime temperature in the upper 80's.....I can find basking areas in excess of 100 degrees......I can also find cool areas in the 70s......On a 70 deg night, I can find places with temps in the high 80s...

When I go field herping, I bring my temp gun. Why? It is interesting to see how much temperatures vary in nature. On an average day this time of year, I can find temps ranging from 75 deg. to 115 deg....I can also find various moisture (humidity) levels....

...the thing is.....the reptiles can find their niche in the spectrum of environmental conditions alot better than most people know.

In captivity, some provide a set humidity....some a narrow temperature range....what would happen if you provide something outside of those commonly used conditions and give the animal a choise?

Reptiles are alot better at knowing what they need than their keepers. I say give them the options and let the animals make their own choices.

Just commenting on the last 2 posts Dans and Marcs.

We provide these gradiets, because in the wild, they maintain this themselves. Where do they go to shed? A damper area. When Hot? A cooler area, When cold? a warmer area. They constantly move to adjust there temps. They are like a natural On/Off thermostat. If it drops to a certain point and they have a need for higher temps, they move to a hotter area. If they get to hot, they cool down.

This is very visible in captivity too, The cool/hot side, they move when hot, move when cold.

Though this is a BP forum, beardies were mentioned, and I can give the best example with this.

Bearded dragons need a body temp of 95 to digest. My dragon perfers a body temp of 98. Ive observed her with a tempgun, After she eats, she basks, when she gets to 99 body temp, she moves to the cool side on top of her cave, when she drops to about 96, she basks again, This is all to maintain her ideal temp. Id love to give a large enclosure outside the ordinary, SHe has a 5x2x2, and it is not enough IMO, Im thinking out ideas to make things better.

In Captivity, Generally we dont have tons of area to provide a mix of areas which is why tubs and racks are made. In my mind, for a ball python, the Ideal enclosure would be a A mix of terrain, temps, humidity, and it would be large, If its large, the snake may hide, but it wont try to excape, I dont think it stresses them as much as there hunt to excape.

Mainly because we are happier setting up the Ideal zones, so they can live "fine", and we have a Tub love. Unless you provide every temp in the gradient and a range of humidity, and terrain, we have to give the ideal. Id love to try the a large enclosure with a mix of terrain and temps, but dont feel comfortable giving it a go. Also, the work and effort into that, would be too much to do if a person had multiple snakes. so we give perfect, they stay healthy, happy i dont know. The snake is not thriving in the tub, they are healthy, but not thiving, theres a fine line between surviving and thriving. I know i will be flamed for this, but really think about it, You keep them healthy, but theres more to that. I dont agree with the way tubs are delt with on a mass scale, Tubs can be done right, but generally they are not.

Humans can live in there house all there life is food is brought to them it is clean, they get medical care when needed, and all the stuff is perfect and brought to them, But when a person is active, not only are they physically healthier, they are happier, and there lives are enriched. Im not comparing a snakes emotions to a humans, But think, You can live that way, but theres something better outthere. Survive, not thrive.

I think if he had imperfect temps, the snake would be more active, and in a result fitter and healthier. It would be a cool practice, but one that idealy would be done by someone with experience with the wild habitat.

Just some ideas, I tink we can change the way they live for the better, Just takes some thinking, and not sticking to your absolute guns. Think outside the tub, and see what you can think up.
Ben

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Originally Posted by MrShultzy

Great post Dan:)
Here's some food for thought about the temperature/gradient issue. You hear much thrown around like, 92 hot side, 82 cool side, etc. Does anyone know the average temperatures for the area in Africa that balls come from?(Togo, Benin, Ghana). Here's a link to average temps for that region over the entire year:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/trave...omnav_business

As you can see temperatures vary quite a bit. The AVG daytime is upper 80's - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. The AVG nightime is mid 70's or so - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. And during the winter there it only gets to the low 80's and at night can get below low 70's - yet the seem to survive and thrive quite well under these conditions.

Not taking any sides here, just throwing out some different ideas.


Marc

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Are there any measurements of the temps inside the insulating burrows and termite mounds that have been heated during the day? I would have to dig, and I think Frankykeno may have the link, but I believe that I remember reading that they tend to maintain consistent temps in the high 80's, even at night when the outside temps drop.

Yea, I know that termite mounds are excellent at keeping constant perfect temps. That's why termite mounds are used by so many different animals.