Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)

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Originally Posted by Ball_Pythons4life

... but why would you even breed reptiles if money isn't a motivator...

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Enjoyment of the species, interest in the biological process, to see the full life cycle of animals in your care, lifelong passion for the keeping of reptiles, produce animals for one's self, to educate others about nature... Not everything in the world needs to be commodified, and certainly not to the extent that living, breathing animals are.

While I don't personally enjoy breeding snakes commercially to sell, I don't see anything wrong with those who do so ethically. After all, don't we all love to have good breeders to source c/b pets from? Breeding snakes is a lot of work & an investment of time and money- with all the potential losses that farmers face, & while there are some who don't care about their animals as we'd hope, I think they're in the minority & it doesn't sound to me as if Mike Wilbanks is among them.

I don't think this bit of research truly crossed any lines, ethically speaking. I can remember hearing about some guy who was trying to breed & sell snakes that just couldn't be bothered to give the snakes water bowls ("so they wouldn't spill water & mess up the cages"!), much less any other quality of life (like cleanliness). The snake-equivalent of a "puppy mill". I do have a huge problem with that. But not this, not as this was explained.

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Enjoyment of the species, interest in the biological process, to see the full life cycle of animals in your care, lifelong passion for the keeping of reptiles, produce animals for one's self, to educate others about nature... Not everything in the world needs to be commodified, and certainly not to the extent that living, breathing animals are.

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Yeah I probably should have phrased that better, thats a b on my part, what I should have said is why breed bps and sell them if money isn't a motivator. I also probably shouldn't have posted that reply as the purpose of this isnt to start an argument but to share opinions. :(

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I don't think this bit of research truly crossed any lines, ethically speaking. I can remember hearing about some guy who was trying to breed & sell snakes that just couldn't be bothered to give the snakes water bowls ("so they wouldn't spill water & mess up the cages"!), much less any other quality of life (like cleanliness). The snake-equivalent of a "puppy mill". I do have a huge problem with that. But not this, not as this was explained.

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I agree. I've followed Mike enough to know how passionate he is about the species, but he's also running a business. I don't think his intentions, and they're his intentions I have no clue I'm just speaking as an observer, but I don't think his intentions with this was to create a "BP mill" and try to turn and burn breeders just to get to the next best thing. I have zero interest in breeding, but if I can breed a species ethically, in a manner that causes no harm to the animals, AND on top of the enjoyment I get from it as a hobbyist, I can make a little money, I don't see an issue. I don't agree with power feeding but I don't think that this is power feeding.

The big issue I think people are taking with this, although I don't think Mike did anything wrong, is what's the benefit of doing this IF NOT to breed them faster. I mean that's the topic of his whole post. Again I trust him, I think he's doing things ethically and safety, but short of having that male of breeding size in a few months, why do this? I think it's hard as a big breeder to enjoy what you do, and enjoy and be passionate about the species on one hand, but on the other this is your livelihood, so you have to find ways to improve and at times speed the process up. I DO NOT believe by any means that this should be done at the risk of harming the animal, but he's not forcing any of his snakes to eat at this pace so, I don't know that it hurts anything. Again, if he could tell me that there are no long term health effects of doing this, I think I'd feel better, but short of that all I can do is trust that he's doing right by his animals.

Also as a side note, I just want to say that I'm aware that we're all very passionate about our animals and that we can at times get a little hot over topics like this. That being said, nothing I say in this post, or any post I ever make, is meant to be a shot at anyone or an attempt by me to prove anyone wrong or start an argument. I love a little friendly debate and hope that you all know that I have the upmost respect for you all.

I think the point of doing this (for Wilbanks or anyone else) was pretty clear. When you want & need some income from snakes you breed (let's face it, they may be an INVESTMENT, besides being an enjoyable one) you soon realize that the first breeders to come up with new & different colors-patterns-morphs-etc. are the ones who make the most money. As he pointed out, the source of his pinstripe was shocked that he was on the market with offspring so soon thereafter. Oops, competition already!? So I can sympathize but that's always the risk once you start selling the rare thing you managed to come up with in your breeding projects. Mike might never get that lucky again, now that others find out how he did that so fast, lol. So for him to share this information really wasn't to his own personal advantage, IMO- it seems just to be about increasing our collective knowledge about snakes, which I do respect him for.

Personally I don't have any interest in ever breeding snakes any more (did I mention they're a lot of work?) because I worry too much about each getting a good home. When I've bred some snakes it was for "other reasons", it sure wasn't a big source of income- I had a good "day job" & I made more money breeding & selling rodents than I ever did on snakes- the rodents supported my snakes, lol. Snakes are always a 'labor of love' for me, & I like it that way. Like when I kept rattlesnakes, that was never about money at all. Nor were the other native snakes I worked with (like desert glossy snakes). You don't get rich working with common or non-salable species...at least not the monetary kind of "rich". ;)

I'm all for experimentation if it doesn't hurt the animal, but it still seems just a tiny bit like power-feeding to me. However, as others have pointed out, snakes are opportunistic feeders and if they could eat that much in the wild, they surely would. And honestly, just how much maturity does a male have to have to start producing viable sperm? Females, on the other hand, DO need to be much more mature because breeding takes a lot out of them physically. I am interested in seeing how this plays out in the end -- affecting longevity, etc.
Thanks for the link!

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Originally Posted by Ball_Pythons4life

I don't mean this to be an angry reply, but I have a few problems with this post.

Let me ask you this. If there's a plague of rats and your a snake will you eat a big one and wait another 5 days and eat another big one? How do we know that the feeding regime that seems to be the status quo is right just because it works? Mike Wilbanks wouldn't be this big of a breeder if he didnt do what was in the best interest of his animals, but why would you even breed reptiles if money isn't a motivator. Its the same thing as being a doctor and liking your job, you're still going to want to get paid. And also "many" is a large exaggeration for the people saying they were getting sold off, as it was only one user

("Of course it’s not forever. Just long enough to make money on them and then sell them to someone else.")

He also says why he only uses this technique on male

("ps…I have found no real advantage to growing females quickly. They will routinely breed at 18 months but I think it is better to wait until they are 2-3 years of age. They seem to have more eggs throughout their lifetimes and grow to an overall larger size if you wait to breed them.")



note: I used a few examples from the original thread.

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Huh? Is this plague of rats so consistent that they are eating them daily but only for a year? I'm interested in feeding a diet that is closely aligned to what an animal would naturally eat, in those frequencies. I'm not sure that biggest breeder = best interest of the animals as that's rarely true in other species from my experience, what would you say he does over and above other breeders for his snakes? It may have been the same person repeating, I scanned it quick and am not part of that forum but my question was more about the answer, did he give any info as far as lifespan, breeding rates long term, any issues, any necropsies done and the results? Does he still have those males even? It's interesting that people feel feeding them daily is ok if they are willing, but breeding females young isn't because then you get fewer eggs long term, so it's not really about what the animal is willing to do at all, it's solely the dollar factor. I can't speak from that regard, I don't breed and I wouldn't breed for money if I did as it's not my interest.

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Enjoyment of the species, interest in the biological process, to see the full life cycle of animals in your care, lifelong passion for the keeping of reptiles, produce animals for one's self, to educate others about nature... Not everything in the world needs to be commodified, and certainly not to the extent that living, breathing animals are.

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Good lord...if its anything other than what you said :confusd:.

This thread is an amazing read and sad if you have looked at it for decades the way jmcrook posted about it...:(

My opinions on the matter are pretty controversial. I think it's near impossible to overfeed a 0-6mos old BP without regurge. I also think if it's working for Wilbanks, there has to be some incredible wisdom to it. What I do with my holdbacks has some overlap, though I have never tried to that extreme. I think part of what makes it work so well for males can work just as well for females in that part of their life, but females just need to reach a larger size, and this heavy feeding needs to be discontinued long before the females can reach breeding size to avoid negative health consequences. Still, a female fed this way up to 6 mos and then slowed down still has a huge advantage in size over a female fed the traditional way. Whether or not you breed a female at 18 mos is a different story. If you continuously breed them and do not allow for them to keep gaining size, they are going to keep having smaller clutches. Their growth potential does slow down more and more over time, so breeding that first possible opportunity is going to set you back for a couple years. You would have to give them 2 or 3 years off to allow them to catch up with the others.

I have had very positive results feeding reptilinks as well and seeing incredible growth rates. Makes sense to me that being so much less taxing on their digestive system, they are able to use a higher percentage of those calories for growth. Getting a BP to eat reptilinks in the first place is not for beginners though. I've done some experimenting with clutch mates where one is fed reptilinks and the other is fed rodents with the same weight, and while my sample size is pretty small, reptilinks has been the clear winner out of each pair I tried.

1. Grows the bps up faster so they can breed sooner
I'm sure this is possible but growth doesn't equate to maturity.

2. requires less energy to digest their meals
I don't think being in a constant state of digestion uses less energy. Reptiles by design and over millions of years of evolution are wired for feast and famine. Even during the "feasting" period, which is more often than not brought on by seasonal changes, a weekly/daily meal isn't typical.

3. more closely mirrors their feeding in the wild
How so? I actually find this to be the complete opposite of snakes feeding in the wild. Even higher metabolism colubrids have time away from constant meals. A royal python, which is known to go off feed for months, sometimes a full year will eat on its own schedule. They are ambush predators and if they are lucky they may eat more frequently, but Mother Nature has a way of making things difficult.

I'd venture to guess the snakes that fast and eat only when they want to eat will out live the animals that are fed constantly.

All of that said, I tend to agree that an animal that gets off to a good start may have an advantage in the wild. Only the strong survive, but being realistic, success in the wild for reptiles may come down to eating a handful of times a year and dodging predators.