Are we feeding too much?

Hey All

I came across this article recently which I found very interesting...

http://community.livejournal.com/herpers/1595022.html

It details how much extra fat appears on an active species of snake (adult cobra) from a feeding schedule of 10-14 days. They think this snake got ill from excess fat placing pressure on nerves.

Boids (pythons) are very inactive species in comparison to elapids hence do not metabolise their meals as quickly which would lead to a larger build-up of fat.

This has made me think about my feeding routines and how much I feed my balls. My concern is that even on a 14 day schedule adult ball pythons may be getting too much food which build up fat reserves too much which affects the snakes longevity.

According to this thread

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...47#post1138747

Only 27% of respondants in the poll have balls that are 5 years or older. The majority of balls are still relatively young, and won't show any overfeeding issues for a few years yet.

Similar concept to the obesity issue in our society today. Kids are eating way too much without proper exercise and this is reducing their life expectancy.

I was wondering what fellow forum members thoughts on this are. Are we seeing a time bomb here, that in 5-10 years time we are going to see an increase in premature deaths due to overfeeding of our balls at a young age.

And, those of you that have ball pythons over 15 years of age, how often and what size prey are you feeding?

Thanks:gj:

Gosh, that wouldn't be good! Thanks for starting this thread. I'll be tuned in to the replies.

My 9-10 year old bp gets offered a small rat a week.

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Originally Posted by tbowman

My 9-10 year old bp gets offered a small rat a week.

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Thanks tbowman, tell me, what weight is this ball ? And have you had this routine for its entire life...... ?

Well, I can't say his exact weight. I got him from a pet store when I was about 7 or 8. He/she was already a good size then. I have fed him up to large rats. But then I brought him down to smalls again because he is a finicky eater sometimes. I've had him for 7-9 years and he had to be a few years old when I bought him.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i2...an92/cage2.jpg

Over the years I've read and participated in some very interesting discussions about prey size, including many on this wonderful forum. From those discussions, about 2 years ago we decided to stop offering our BPs large feeders. We now offer 1 small or small medium once/week while they are eating.

I doubt we'll know if this helps in their long term health for many years (most of our BPs are <10 years old) but I do think they tend to stay on feed and eat more consistently with the small feeders.

the larger the prey, the more worried i tend to be. i have only fed her large prey once. for the most part i would stick with the larger of the small size rats (if that makes sense). that way im comfortable and i know she is not overwhelmed. usually two to three will do, depending on if she is in one of her moods. if its been a long while ( like over 9 months which she has done before) i would start with a mouse just to see if she is hungry or if she gives it the "please get away from me look".

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Originally Posted by Bundu Boy

According to this thread

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...47#post1138747

Only 27% of respondants in the poll have balls that are 5 years or older. The majority of balls are still relatively young, and won't show any overfeeding issues for a few years yet.

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Very interesting, and thank you for sharing! I did want to make one point about this poll. I would hazard a guess that MOST of the members here haven't been keeping ball pythons for very long, so "only" 27% of the respondents probably isn't an accurate representation of the life expectancy of our captive ball pythons.

Basically, the target audience of just this forum skews the results to the oldest being on the younger end (percentage-wise), simply because such a large number of our members (including myself) haven't been keeping ball pythons long enough to have any much older than 5 years. I've raised all but 2 or 3 of my animals from babies, and I got my first ball python in 2005. I do have a couple females that I acquired as adults who were pet store surrenders with no historical back-ground, so I don't know how old they were before they came into my collection.

This was also very interesting for me personally after listening to Tom Wolfe on Reptile Radio and his feeding methods (which was to pound food into his animals - basically feed them every time they were hungry), I was considering changing up my feeding methods for my girls that are in this year's breeding plans.

After reading this, I'm re-evaluating. I currently feed small rats to all of my adults, 1 a week. Even that may be too much if this LJ is any indication.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Very interesting, and thank you for sharing! I did want to make one point about this poll. I would hazard a guess that MOST of the members here haven't been keeping ball pythons for very long, so "only" 27% of the respondents probably isn't an accurate representation of the life expectancy of our captive ball pythons.

Basically, the target audience of just this forum skews the results to the oldest being on the younger end (percentage-wise), simply because such a large number of our members (including myself) haven't been keeping ball pythons long enough to have any much older than 5 years. I've raised all but 2 or 3 of my animals from babies, and I got my first ball python in 2005. I do have a couple females that I acquired as adults who were pet store surrenders with no historical back-ground, so I don't know how old they were before they came into my collection.

This was also very interesting for me personally after listening to Tom Wolfe on Reptile Radio and his feeding methods (which was to pound food into his animals - basically feed them every time they were hungry), I was considering changing up my feeding methods for my girls that are in this year's breeding plans.

After reading this, I'm re-evaluating. I currently feed small rats to all of my adults, 1 a week. Even that may be too much if this LJ is any indication.

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I hear what you are saying about the age of the balls/their owners. I've only been collecting balls for 18 months and from the get go I've been reading about feeding babies every 3 days, then every 5-7 days, then as adults every 10-14 days.

Is this too much?....

I believe that feeding babies/juveniles more regularly is important to give them their start in life, but at what point do we slow down and adopt a longer break between feeding?

I've got a spider male that is 9 months old and weighs almost 800g, he will eat everytime I put food in front of him, now I cannot but think that he has been overfed. I don't believe that the view 'feed them if they will eat' is good for the animal and may result in causing more harm than good. A dog will eat at any opportunity it gets ( well mine will at least;) ) and end up obese.

Perhaps when we encounter a ball's 'hunger strike' it is telling us that we have gone too far and we need to give it months (not weeks) before trying to feed again. Perhaps....

Some people will feed their animals to get them up to breeding weight as quick as possible, but at what price? Sure you may get females to breed at their second winter but is it a good idea if you are halving the lifespan of the animal?

I'm interested in hearing from owners that have had balls a long time as I believe their input would be of value. Balls can live to over 40 years and I want to know how these animals are cared for when it comes to feeding....

Ball pythons are still relatively new in the grand scheme of things, especially when you consider the age they can go to. As depicted by that poll, the majority of owners may have had balls for about 5 years (or have ball that are 5 years old) ... most of those balls are still considered young....

:gj:

BTW - What is a LJ?

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Originally Posted by Bundu Boy

BTW - What is a LJ?

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Live Journal (where you linked to). :)

feed them if they eat ! Thats what I do because they go off feed sometimes in their life,females get fed more to get ready for breeding.Ive been keeping for 3 years now & hate it when they are picky,babies I feed every 3 to 4 days/yearlings every 5/adults every 5 to 7 days if they want it.Like my girls nice & fat LOL!

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Originally Posted by Alice

Over the years I've read and participated in some very interesting discussions about prey size, including many on this wonderful forum. From those discussions, about 2 years ago we decided to stop offering our BPs large feeders. We now offer 1 small or small medium once/week while they are eating.

I doubt we'll know if this helps in their long term health for many years (most of our BPs are <10 years old) but I do think they tend to stay on feed and eat more consistently with the small feeders.

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BPs in the wild have feast days & fast days. We are able to offer them food at regular intervals & IMHO this is a better thing than not. However, I don't stuff my snakes like sausages just because they can "handle it".

I see that more with Retics than BPs but still- offer a "nice" sized item around equal to the girth of the snake. I document feeding of each animal & work with what they do well on. Some of mine are 5 day feeders, some 7 & some 10 day. Watch your snake & document... this area can vary so IMHO be flexible.

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Originally Posted by Bundu Boy

I hear what you are saying about the age of the balls/their owners. I've only been collecting balls for 18 months and from the get go I've been reading about feeding babies every 3 days, then every 5-7 days, then as adults every 10-14 days.

Is this too much?....

I believe that feeding babies/juveniles more regularly is important to give them their start in life, but at what point do we slow down and adopt a longer break between feeding?

I've got a spider male that is 9 months old and weighs almost 800g, he will eat everytime I put food in front of him, now I cannot but think that he has been overfed. I don't believe that the view 'feed them if they will eat' is good for the animal and may result in causing more harm than good. A dog will eat at any opportunity it gets ( well mine will at least;) ) and end up obese.

Perhaps when we encounter a ball's 'hunger strike' it is telling us that we have gone too far and we need to give it months (not weeks) before trying to feed again. Perhaps....

Some people will feed their animals to get them up to breeding weight as quick as possible, but at what price? Sure you may get females to breed at their second winter but is it a good idea if you are halving the lifespan of the animal?

I'm interested in hearing from owners that have had balls a long time as I believe their input would be of value. Balls can live to over 40 years and I want to know how these animals are cared for when it comes to feeding....

Ball pythons are still relatively new in the grand scheme of things, especially when you consider the age they can go to. As depicted by that poll, the majority of owners may have had balls for about 5 years (or have ball that are 5 years old) ... most of those balls are still considered young....

:gj:

BTW - What is a LJ?

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In my family, we have a 8 year old black lab. Gorgeous and best dog ever. Anyways. We had her since she was very few months old. She ALWAYS had and has food in her bowl. She has always fed herself. She is not obese and never has been.

But then again every dog breed is different. I Just wanted to let you know and about her self feeding and not being obese. ;)

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Originally Posted by Danounet

In my family, we have a 8 year old black lab. Gorgeous and best dog ever. Anyways. We had her since she was very few months old. She ALWAYS had and has food in her bowl. She has always fed herself. She is not obese and never has been.

But then again every dog breed is different. I Just wanted to let you know and about her self feeding and not being obese. ;)

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He he..... I've also got a black lab and if I left food in his bowl all the time he'd eat himself silly......

Just goes to show how different the same/similar animals can be.....

Thanks for the comments all....

@NorthernRegius - You are right about BPs in the wild. These animals have lived hundreds of thousands of years on a very erratic (natural) feeding routine. They may eat 2 rats in one day then eat nothing for 6 months and they still grow and breed and live long. We must also not forget that balls in the wild may be more active than those in captivity, their need for food may cause them to move around more than a ball that has been conditioned to expect food to be brought to it.

There are some schools of thought out there that perhaps an inconsistent feeding schedule is actually better for the animal. Inconsistent feeding mimics how it would be in the wild and helps provide the right level of food input in relation to the animal's energy consumption. We must not forget that in the wild a rat does not appear every friday at 6pm......

This is one reason I feel that we may be making our little girls and guys overweight. This is an area I'm definitely more interested in investigating further...

@Greghall. - I agree with feeding youngsters more as they are growing quicker and have need for more food imo.

But I must ask the question, why must your girls be fat?

Thanks again for the replies. I'm still keen to hear from the older school on this matter, if you have a ball python that is 10-15yrs+, what size are they and how much do you feed them?

I don't think feeding an adult ball once a week is over feeding. They use a tremendous amount of energy just to kill their prey. They have to flex every muscle in their body for up to 15 minutes. That is a lot of work!

Cobras need to be active in order to exercise since they kill their prey with venom, not by constriction. Its really comparing apples to oranges.

Hey all

I found this

http://books.google.co.za/books?id=b...0study&f=false

It is from a study book called 'Experimental Animal in Biomedical Research: Volume 2'

If you click the link and go to the bottom of pg 58 it details 5 key factors in providing proper nutrition in snakes in captivity.

It recommends that young snakes are fed every 7 days, with adults every 2 weeks to a month. (I am making the assumption that adult feeding is linked to the activity level of each snake species - more active = more frequent feeding & less active = less frequent feeding)

It also indicates that longevity in snakes is linked to restricting their growth without under-nourishing them. To me this basically means that once adulthood is reached I should feed my balls enough so that weight gain still increases but at a much slower rate than expected of a juvenile ball python.

Another factor which I am taking into consideration when looking at my feeding routine is female weight gain before breeding and winter fasting.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

I don't think feeding an adult ball once a week is over feeding. They use a tremendous amount of energy just to kill their prey. They have to flex every muscle in their body for up to 15 minutes. That is a lot of work!

Cobras need to be active in order to exercise since they kill their prey with venom, not by constriction. Its really comparing apples to oranges.

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You may have a point there but I think that we should be wary of discounting the energy exerted in day to living of these animals. Elapids are much more active than boids on a daily basis so I find it difficult to accept that a ball python will use as much or more energy than a cobra over , let's say, a month.

This is an educated guess on my part. I may be wrong, but I need facts on these matters.

I've only had ball pythons less than two years so I cannot say that my current feeding regime is right. Ask me in 15 years time, then I'd be able to give a more factual answer.

I'm afraid in this matter that I cannot agree with opinions made by owners that have had their ball for less than 5-10 years (myself included), overfeeding issues may only show themselves 10 years from when the animal is hatched. What we think is a healthy happy ball python may actually be an obese ball python that has been conditioned to accept food when offered (like my male spider!)...

Again this stresses the importance of hearing from the age experienced ball python owners out there:please:

I will say yes, I believe we are feeding a bit too much.
I feed a bit less than the average forum goer here. But I'm also not in a huge hurry to breed. It really depends on your own experience and judgment. There's a point of unhealthy overfeeding and unhealthy underfeeding. As long as you fit some point in the middle of healthy, I think your doing fine.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I will say yes, I believe we are feeding a bit too much.
I feed a bit less than the average forum goer here. But I'm also not in a huge hurry to breed. It really depends on your own experience and judgment. There's a point of unhealthy overfeeding and unhealthy underfeeding. As long as you fit some point in the middle of healthy, I think your doing fine.

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I think you touched on a major point there:gj:

When I got my first few balls I thought that's I'd get as much food into them as quick as possible to get them up to breeding weight. But the more I research the matter the more I'm swinging towards the slow and steady approach as opposed to the quick and loads approach.

I stopped months ago pushing to get my females to breeding weight by their second winter. :colbert: I will now take more time and get them up to weight by their third winter. My thinking is that they will be more mature, strong and physically ready for the breeding process.

Secondly I want to enjoy my balls for as many years as possible, this is fairer on the animal and will help ensure I get longer living animals that will give me more healthy clutches.

So what if I have only one female ready to breed next year, the following year I'll be much more comfortable in the knowledge that my other 3 females have had time to grow at a more natural pace to breeding age/size.

What is the rush? These are living pieces of art that we have invested time and money in....:gj:

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Originally Posted by Bundu Boy

I think you touched on a major point there:gj:

When I got my first few balls I thought that's I'd get as much food into them as quick as possible to get them up to breeding weight. But the more I research the matter the more I'm swinging towards the slow and steady approach as opposed to the quick and loads approach.

I stopped months ago pushing to get my females to breeding weight by their second winter. :colbert: I will now take more time and get them up to weight by their third winter. My thinking is that they will be more mature, strong and physically ready for the breeding process.

Secondly I want to enjoy my balls for as many years as possible, this is fairer on the animal and will help ensure I get longer living animals that will give me more healthy clutches.

So what if I have only one female ready to breed next year, the following year I'll be much more comfortable in the knowledge that my other 3 females have had time to grow at a more natural pace to breeding age/size.

What is the rush? These are living pieces of art that we have invested time and money in....:gj:

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Document whatever you do & track your results let THE RESULTS guide what you do- not what you expect beforehand. After a few years of adjusting, you will find what works for you.

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Originally Posted by NorthernRegius.com

Document whatever you do & track your results let THE RESULTS guide what you do- not what you expect beforehand. After a few years of adjusting, you will find what works for you.

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Hey NR. I keep detailed records of all my balls, i use a card that is available free from my website ( http://www.ballpythonssa.co.za/Ball%...0Ironballs.pdf )

I don't agree 100% with what you are saying about letting the results guide me though. We are dealing with a living animal and I feel that if we only change our care once THE RESULTS are in then we may have some sick or even dead balls on our hands. Naturally, as observant ball owners, we would not (or should not) let it get to the stage where our animals die though.

I agree 100% that we will learn from our experiences. But I do not like the thought that we may be doing more harm than good to our animals by overfeeding them. This is the reason I am researching and questioning this matter.

I am starting to question the fact that recommendations are to feed adults a suitable sized prey once per week. There are a lot of owners here that stick to that schedule because the forum said so, or someone told them so, or they read it in book. But what is the cause/effect of our actions?

My question will always be, what will happen 10 - 15 years from now with these ball pythons that have been fed weekly with this prey size? I think that it is commonly accepted that pumping your snake with food will result in premature death, the question is how much food is too much?

I've spent just 24 hours or so looking at this topic online and I am finding more evidence (opinions, fact sheets and scientific study) that leads me to believe that even feeding adults every 14 days may be too much.

I'm not declaring that it is wrong to feed at a certain schedule, each person must decide what they must do. But in my experience I have found that you should not always follow blindly what is taught to you, especially when the outcomes of what you are taught have not been tested properly...

When it comes to the health of my balls I'd rather be proactive rather than reactive....:gj:

Yes, i think people tend to overfeed ball pythons ( and everything else) by quite a large amount. *after looking at that link, i was a participant, and continue to be on that site/community. That necropsy was proof enough for me, and seeing peoples SAUSAGE snakes just... bothers me. there is NO reason to feed the way people do!*

I feed every other week, sometimes longer. Basically when i feel like it. my snakes continue to grow and gain weight, and maintain healthy weights.

You wont find a female ball python here reaching 1K grams in a year. Sorry, never happen.

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Originally Posted by Bundu Boy

Hey NR. I keep detailed records of all my balls, i use a card that is available free from my website ( http://www.ballpythonssa.co.za/Ball%...0Ironballs.pdf )

I don't agree 100% with what you are saying about letting the results guide me though. We are dealing with a living animal and I feel that if we only change our care once THE RESULTS are in then we may have some sick or even dead balls on our hands. Naturally, as observant ball owners, we would not (or should not) let it get to the stage where our animals die though.

I agree 100% that we will learn from our experiences. But I do not like the thought that we may be doing more harm than good to our animals by overfeeding them. This is the reason I am researching and questioning this matter.

I am starting to question the fact that recommendations are to feed adults a suitable sized prey once per week. There are a lot of owners here that stick to that schedule because the forum said so, or someone told them so, or they read it in book. But what is the cause/effect of our actions?

My question will always be, what will happen 10 - 15 years from now with these ball pythons that have been fed weekly with this prey size? I think that it is commonly accepted that pumping your snake with food will result in premature death, the question is how much food is too much?

I've spent just 24 hours or so looking at this topic online and I am finding more evidence (opinions, fact sheets and scientific study) that leads me to believe that even feeding adults every 14 days may be too much.

....

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Well I've some 10 year old snakes, & nearly 10 years of keeping them under my belt, so I can't speak to your research. I can speak to what I have seen with my collection, helping rescues & caring for other people's snakes. I track my results on a computer data base... death, you think that's the result I was speaking to?

There's much to watch throughout a snake's life to indicate health. What I track are, growth, weight- gain or loss, defecation interval, reproduction etc. I even make notes on activity level & temperament.

And from this I can clearly state there is not an exact one size fits all feeding schedule. Let me clarify about how I feed my collection. In winter most of my adults are either off feed or sporadic- so when I speak of feeding intervals of 5,7, or 10 days I am talking about young snakes &/or adults during the late Spring through early fall. I have some adults who fast only 4 months, some fast 6 months EVERY year since they hit maturity. So, when I say let the results guide you, I'm talking about working with the snake.

Yes, I have seen owners who over feed- especially in the world of Retics. I do not. It is very easy to tell when a snake is out of condition. I have also seen grossly underfed snakes, especially BPs while helping out with herp rescue. So again these things do vari.

Can a snake do alright on a 14 day schedule? There are many species of Boids that definitely do. Should a BP under 1 year of age be feed 1 mouse once a month- I think not. So, track parameters & the overall condition of the snake is all I'm suggesting.

Now that is the kind of answer I'm happy to see, thanks NR.

Naturally, stages of life will help to guide you in how much to feed. I'm not too concerned with the first 12-18 months of a Ball's life as this is when it grows the most. Although I think even my spider may have pushed the envelope a little in his early stages, which was 100% my fault.

My concern comes in once the ball reaches adulthood. Growth is no longer at the same rate as when it was younger and the animal's needs have changed. It is at this point that I am focusing my efforts regarding feeding.

The ball does not need the food energy to grow at a high rate anymore, so do we need to continue to pump food into them?

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Originally Posted by mooingtricycle

Yes, i think people tend to overfeed ball pythons ( and everything else) by quite a large amount. *after looking at that link, i was a participant, and continue to be on that site/community. That necropsy was proof enough for me, and seeing peoples SAUSAGE snakes just... bothers me. there is NO reason to feed the way people do!*

I feed every other week, sometimes longer. Basically when i feel like it. my snakes continue to grow and gain weight, and maintain healthy weights.

You wont find a female ball python here reaching 1K grams in a year. Sorry, never happen.

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So an erratic approach to feeding has not given negative results, thanks for sharing:gj:

I am starting to believe that an inconsistent feeding approach may have benefits to our balls, this is how it happens in nature for our little friends....

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Originally Posted by Bundu Boy

Now that is the kind of answer I'm happy to see, thanks NR.

Naturally, stages of life will help to guide you in how much to feed. I'm not too concerned with the first 12-18 months of a Ball's life as this is when it grows the most. Although I think even my spider may have pushed the envelope a little in his early stages, which was 100% my fault.

My concern comes in once the ball reaches adulthood. Growth is no longer at the same rate as when it was younger and the animal's needs have changed. It is at this point that I am focusing my efforts regarding feeding.

The ball does not need the food energy to grow at a high rate anymore, so do we need to continue to pump food into them?

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Shouldn't happen. But if you are breeding adults you will notice just how much it takes out of both boys & girls... and at that point your replacing lost body weight with a bit of minor growth. Girls can lose over 1/2 their weight laying eggs, males lose weight courting & breeding... males who are pulled from breeding still take their sweet time going back on feed, even though their weight fluctuates less than the girls.

Now, snakes that aren't being bred? Well, I've a few that are on break any given season- I do not breed an adult snake every year here. Again feeding for this is different. As long as you keep good records I still believe it's simple to do right by your animals.

Ok so how should we be feeding Balls under a year and so on ?

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Originally Posted by Haydenphoto

Ok so how should we be feeding Balls under a year and so on ?

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I find that young snakes do well on a 5-7 day feeding schedule. My hatchlings & live feeders get varied 5 or 7 naturally due to the availability of rats- 7 days being the longest they have to wait as my local pet-store is fantastic at supplying my live feeders. Once on FT they are very regular, but they still naturally skip feedings durings sheds, which are usually around once a month to 6 weeks.

I feed prey items that are around equal to the girth of the snake- prey girth to snake girth.

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Originally Posted by NorthernRegius.com

I find that young snakes do well on a 5-7 day feeding schedule. My hatchlings & live feeders get varied 5 or 7 naturally due to the availability of rats- 7 days being the longest they have to wait as my local pet-store is fantastic at supplying my live feeders. Once on FT they are very regular, but they still naturally skip feedings durings sheds, which are usually around once a month to 6 weeks.

I feed prey items that are around equal to the girth of the snake- prey girth to snake girth.

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I have been feeding mine baby's every 5 days sub adults about 5 to 7 days and adult once a week ! I breed AFS so the meals very some of my adults i feed 3 or 4 rats just depends on the size of the rat !

Thanks everyone for this great info.

I have one question. When is a BP considered Adult? I see 18 months thrown out alot here and there, but no one says why 18 months.

Thanx

I know I already commented on another thread on this topic, so I'll try not to repeat myself TOO much. But ...

I, like Alicia, now feed on a very erratic feeding schedule. I have more blood pythons than ball pythons at this point, and bloods are very, very, VERY prone to obesity.

What I do is to feed to body condition. This means that I feed my snakes more or less based on how fat or thin they are looking to me at the time. With my adult bloods, this means that they usually end up eating maybe 6-20 times a *year* depending on the individual.

I do this even with my babies, though. A few years ago I lost one of my absolute favorite snakes, a super-stripe Borneo female, for no apparent reason whatsoever. When we cut her open, I found nothing unusual -- but I did find gobs and gobs and gobs of intracoelomic fat. I now seriously question whether she may have died from the stress of obesity on her internal organs. She was about a year old. I fed her once a week, and never more than that, giving her feeding "time off" for sheds.

I now have two other superstripe gals that I'm raising up now who are both about 2.5 years old. If I pushed them, I'm sure I could get them up to breeding weight by this year -- but I have NO intentions of doing that now. One of them is a voracious feeder who would probably eat 2x-week if I let her. I was feeding her every other week, but I'm giving her some "time off" food now because I feel that she's putting on more fat than I'd like her to. I'd like to give the rest of her growth (skeletal, etc) some time to catch up.

That brings me to my BPs, and the other part of feeding to body condition. I have a few girls I'm raising up now, but my two best eaters are my mojo and my pinstripe. My mojo is the larger of the two, and it seems that all of the weight she puts on is muscle and length. Her body feels very firm and muscular, not "squishy" and tubby. My pin, on the other hand, feels very soft, as if she's getting chunkier, but not a lot longer. Even though the pin is smaller, I'm more inclined to slow down her feeding schedule simply because it seems as though she's putting on fat, not muscle, and that isn't what I want in a growing animal.

I honestly don't know whether or not heavy feeding for a high growth rate of good, healthy muscle, bone and organ tissue is bad or not. In other words -- if you've got a baby that's eating a lot, and growing fast, but not putting on just pure fat -- I don't know that that's a bad thing. Can we somewhat extend the lifespan by nearly starving our pets to death? Yeah, maybe, but I don't know if I'd call that good animal husbandry. I've also read accounts that suggest that caloric restriction as a life-extender is just a myth based on false extrapolation of data in rodents. So I don't really feel like starving my pets just to give them a *theoretical* extra year or two of life.

As far as adult females go, I can see the logic of feeding them heavily when they are eating for those girls who are going to go on 4-6 month fasts. I just wouldn't want my girls to get too much fat, because not only is it unhealthy for her, but she's going to tend to slug out more and I would be much more concerned about dystocia (eggbinding) in a fat female.

Same with breeder boys -- enough weight to keep him healthy, but not so much fat that he's too sluggish and loses interest.

For pets -- they're gonna need a LOT less food to stay at that nice, healthy 4.5-6 body condition score. That's when the once-a-week constant feeding becomes truly excessive, IMO. I don't have any "pet only" BPs, but I know my "pet" blood who's a constant eater gets fed maybe 6-7x per year and STILL looks overweight to me.

No matter what, I always always always keep good, thorough records of my snakes' activities, including feeding. This is always important but especially so feeding on a more sporadic schedule.

tl;dr version: I feed to body condition with my adults AND growing youngsters, sporadic feeding is OK in my opinion, excess fat = bad and most blood pythons are too fat. /End rant.

I feed hatchlings on a 3 day schedule until their 3rd meal (I do want them up for sale quickly, and they'll eat it), and then switch them to a 4 day schedule until they've had 6 meals--then snakes up to age 3 on a 5-day schedule--I switch to a 7-day if they become picky (which occasionally happens).

Adults are a different story. Most of my animals are breeders, so they get fed every 5 days right after clutching, but only for a few weeks--then they're switched back to a 7-day schedule until their weight has gone back to what it was the previous autumn. At that point, I switch them to a 14 day schedule. If necessary, I also reduce prey sizes. It's ok for them to gain a little weight--they do grow a little each year--but I don't want them getting fat, because fat snakes do not breed well. I have a huge female who slugged out and did not lose as much weight as expected, as a result--she's actually on a diet until Autumn! 14 days, and mostly small rats for her. (She had given us an enormous 13 egg clutch, all viable, the previous year--so it's understandable that she's nearly 500 grams heavier than she should be after laying only a clutch of 10 smallish slugs--she was proper weight to START breeding right after laying them!)

Adult males get fed every 7 days, unless they're pathetically skinny after the breeding season. Since males are the first to go off feed in the winter, and don't start up again until the females ovulate and they're taken off rotation, they never have a chance to get fat. I don't have any breeder males whose weight looks excessive, and I'd be surprised if I ever had to switch one to a 14-day schedule.

Non-breeder adults are on a 14-day feeding schedule. If they look like they're getting chubby, they get smaller prey items.

Also... none of my snakes went off feed this year, except for females who were gravid. As soon as clutches were laid, and the snakes washed, those females ate immediately when i offered food.

I also keep cooler temps than is the "norm"

Lucky! I actually took one borderline 1500 gram female off of the breeding rotation right at the start, because she stopped eating. She finished out the season at about 1300 grams, then started eating again. I can't imagine what she'd weigh if she'd had a clutch.
A lot of my boys stop halfway through. The girls usually stop later, shortly before ovulation, but I have a few girls and boys who stop close to the beginning of the season.
I cool for breeding, but I may back off on that this year, and see how it goes. I got an RI or two in the early spring, and I don't like to see that, so perhaps a bit warmer will prevent it.

I should mention (in case anyone bothered to actually read through my stupidly long post, ha ha) that when I say I feed one of my bloods 6x a year, I am feeding him prey that I feel is appropriate for his size -- L - XL rats, a bit thinner than he is big around. Feeding an adult blood python six small rats a year would not be an appropriate feeding schedule ...

It's funny, though -- I'm thinking about it now, and I can't picture ever having seen a ball python that I thought was grossly obese. I've seen a ton of WAY too fat bloods, a ton of WAY too fat Burms, and even some retics that looked quite a bit plumper than I think maybe they should for their species ... But there don't seem to be a ton of REALLY fat BPs out there.

Am I wrong about that? ... Or is it possible that their famous "going off feed" for months on end is their way of saying, "Yeah, that's enough!"?

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

I should mention (in case anyone bothered to actually read through my stupidly long post, ha ha) that when I say I feed one of my bloods 6x a year, I am feeding him prey that I feel is appropriate for his size -- L - XL rats, a bit thinner than he is big around. Feeding an adult blood python six small rats a year would not be an appropriate feeding schedule ...

It's funny, though -- I'm thinking about it now, and I can't picture ever having seen a ball python that I thought was grossly obese. I've seen a ton of WAY too fat bloods, a ton of WAY too fat Burms, and even some retics that looked quite a bit plumper than I think maybe they should for their species ... But there don't seem to be a ton of REALLY fat BPs out there.

Am I wrong about that? ... Or is it possible that their famous "going off feed" for months on end is their way of saying, "Yeah, that's enough!"?

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ive seen TONS of overly fat ball pythons, and also younger ones. AND like you, ive seen quite a few seriously overweight bloods! Boas too... actually ( who REALLY need to be on a reserved feeding schedule)

I DO think animals going off feed has something to do with feeding frequency, but give me a few more years before i base my collection of critters on that opinion. having fed this way for probably two years now, i still need a bit longer to say for certain.

I do find this stuff interesting :)

Yeah, I guess I have too come to think of it ... They just don't get as HUGELY fat as Burms and bloods.

I'm thinking of the animals you see pictures of where the head is ill-defined and blends into the neck because the neck has so much fat around it ... Eeeh. Yuck.

I guess, though, BPs aren't as prone to that due to their naturally slender necks. With them, you have to look more for the fat rolls ... O.o

I find it interesting too :) Then again, I better find it interesting; it's gonna be my career O.o

Oh gosh, you ain't kiddin' about fat boas! I'm just getting into them, trying to figure out an optimum feeding schedule for the adults, and I think I have to SERIOUSLY drop down my feeding for my big education gal -- once every two months is too much for her! She's still squishy even eating on that schedule ...

My Argentine girl, on the other hand, still feels quite lean to me even getting fed a jumbo rat every 14 days.

So there you go -- as previously mentioned, know your animals, because there is no "one size fits all" method of doing just about anything in animal husbandry!

Morning:D

Thanks for the great replies....

I think it is safe to say that there are certain conditions when consistent (weekly) feeding may be required, namely

- Growing years between birth and adulthood
- Preparing females for breeding
- Bringing females back to weight after laying eggs

In these circumstances the animals need extra food.

I like Wingedwolfpsion way of feeding females back to their weight after breeding and then switching to a longer routine. Show a good management principle as opposed to just feeding....

The question was asked earlier - when is a ball python considered to be an adult? Now that is a little difficult to answer.....

Do you go by age? or by weight? or a blend of both? Or perhaps you consider adulthood to be reached when the animal breeds for the first time, or when it reaches a certain length?

At the moment I'd go for a blend of age/weight and then link this to breeding. When it comes to females I'd consider adulthood to have been reached by 3rd winter with a weight of 1600g+, with males I'd consider adults to be 2nd winter with a weight of 1000g+. This is also coincides with the time that I'd attempt breeding with them.

This obviously a very flexible rule and will vary in relation to each snake....

I've been reading this thread and I find it very interesting.

But it does make sense, when you do consider that ball pythons (and snakes in general) don't get regular meals in the wild.

Right now my pastel male is not feeding and has skipped 3 meals. Chowed like a pig when he was growing, now just over 1500g. When he wasn't quite big enough for small rats I fed him two adult mice which he took eagerly (I'm willing to bet he'd have eaten more). However, I'm beginning to think of feeding as much as snake is willing to eat as another way of power feeding (you are simply capitalizing on the snake's instinct). He went from around 14inches to 4ft in a little less than a year. He has been going on and off for me for a while now and is only a little thinner than I'd like.

On the other side of the spectrum is my normal male that has been eating every week, one small rat, and doesn't feel fatty but has shot up around 100g in last few weeks, now 1675g and about 3 1/2. I think he is a bit too girthy.

After reading this, I'm considering doing a test and changing my adult feeding schedule to once every 10-14 days or longer to see how they take to it. They are currently fed on a 7-8 day schedule.

I've always fed babies and juvies once a week. I'm going to try to keep my spider's meals slightly thinner than her thickest point and not give her multiple feeders just because she could eat them.

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Originally Posted by Danounet

Thanks everyone for this great info.

I have one question. When is a BP considered Adult? I see 18 months thrown out alot here and there, but no one says why 18 months.

Thanx

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Males, usually will be producing sperm plugs during this time (some before) but the 1st 18 months is when BPs grow the most.

Personally I wouldn't consider a female an adult until she hits 1500+g; at 800-1499, she's a juvie IMHO. That being said- females typically take 2-3 years to mature.

I have a 13 year old bp and have always let him dictate his own feeding schedule. I purchased him as a baby from a pet shop when I was 11. For the first year or 2 he put himself on a weekly or bi-weekly feeding schedule for the most part, just depended on his mood. But after that point he tapered down to eating maybe once every 3-4 weeks instead. And once in a while he'll get on a kick and want something every week for a month.
He has always kept a nice body mass, never looking too skinny or fat, and he basically just comes out of hiding and will stretch himself up the walls of his cage and move around a lot to let me know he's ready to eat. Sometimes when he would try to go longer than 4 weeks I'd try to feed him anyways and it almost always resulted in having to toss his food in the trash. If he wasn't hungry he wouldn't come out and eat. But considering he's lived as long as he has and not once has he had any health problems I'd have to say sporadic feeding doesn't seem to be detrimental. And luckily with him I think if I would have tried to force a weekly feeding schedule I probably would have ended up with a lot more rats going in the trash than in his stomach.

I find my BP is setting her own schedule as well. When I got her last year about this time she would eat every 5 days, around December she started missing a meal every now and again so I moved her to 7 days. Now she is missing a meal every now and again and I think I am going to move her to every 10 days. She is about 650 grams now and hadn't eaten in 3 weeks. I after offering and her eating 2 mice she was still in hunt mode so I gave her a third, a total of about 90 grams of mouse. Now I won't offer another for at least 10 days. The first time she missed a meal I was anxious and frustrated but now I trust that she will eat when its time. I keep a close eye on her and handle her often, as long as she doesn't look too skinny or too fat I won't worry or change anything.

My girl is 2 yrs old. I got her at 150 g. After a year in my care, she's up to 1100 g. She eats like a pig, and I could count the number of refusals of food on a single hand. I tend to feed her on the upper end of the 10-15% body weight rule. I've always wondered, though, if her growth is too rapid and if she's getting fat.

In the world of fisheries, length-weight relationships for a given species is often calculated. Perhaps this would be an interesting thing to do for ball pythons on this site. We could probably generate a solid plot with enough samples and figure out where our snakes lie on the curve (above or below). The only problem is that our population of snakes is probably overweight to begin with. Anyone think this is worthwhile?

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In the world of fisheries, length-weight relationships for a given species is often calculated. Perhaps this would be an interesting thing to do for ball pythons on this site. We could probably generate a solid plot with enough samples and figure out where our snakes lie on the curve (above or below). The only problem is that our population of snakes is probably overweight to begin with. Anyone think this is worthwhile?

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I think it is an excellent idea.

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Originally Posted by branson

My girl is 2 yrs old. I got her at 150 g. After a year in my care, she's up to 1100 g. She eats like a pig, and I could count the number of refusals of food on a single hand. I tend to feed her on the upper end of the 10-15% body weight rule. I've always wondered, though, if her growth is too rapid and if she's getting fat.

In the world of fisheries, length-weight relationships for a given species is often calculated. Perhaps this would be an interesting thing to do for ball pythons on this site. We could probably generate a solid plot with enough samples and figure out where our snakes lie on the curve (above or below). The only problem is that our population of snakes is probably overweight to begin with. Anyone think this is worthwhile?

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Sounds like a very good idea. If this method is used elsewhere then it may be suitable for use with our ball pythons

The way I see us moving forward in this is to get an idea of the length & weight that the older ball pythons are (>10yrs, >15yrs, >20yrs). The older the better as these mature balls are more likely to have been fed in a healthy manner to get to their grand age.

You could then get an average weight per unit length (you guys use inches, I use centimetres ;) ) for a healthy adult ball.

Anyone want to start a poll on this to gather data? Branson?, it was your idea so do you wanna run with it?

I would like to pose a question in relationship to some of the thoughts posted on this thread. As humans if we are on a regular feeding schedule our bodies respond well, however if we are not our bodies tend to store fat not knowing when the next meal is. Might this be true with ball pythons? Does anyone have any idea? However the amount of food we need is based upon our activity level and metabolism. I might suggest that it would be better for a ball to be on a schedule (which could very depending on the snake) but the amount of food would be adjusted based upon the needed nutrients at the time. I have only had my ball since April so I have hardly any experince under my belt. I adopted her from a pet store and they told me to feed on a regular schedule every two weeks or after she defecates. I have fed her every two weeks since april and she has not yet skipped a meal. I don't know if she is under or overwieght, (I after reading this post feel the need to by a scale) however she seems to be at a healthy weight to me. This is just my hypothesis and any replies or suggestions are welcome!

Ive been reading all the post everybody have made but do we really know how they eat in the wild ? Has any research been done ? I would think they eat more then every 7 days in the wild ?

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Originally Posted by seclark

I would like to pose a question in relationship to some of the thoughts posted on this thread. As humans if we are on a regular feeding schedule our bodies respond well, however if we are not our bodies tend to store fat not knowing when the next meal is. Might this be true with ball pythons? Does anyone have any idea? However the amount of food we need is based upon our activity level and metabolism. I might suggest that it would be better for a ball to be on a schedule (which could very depending on the snake) but the amount of food would be adjusted based upon the needed nutrients at the time. I have only had my ball since April so I have hardly any experince under my belt. I adopted her from a pet store and they told me to feed on a regular schedule every two weeks or after she defecates. I have fed her every two weeks since april and she has not yet skipped a meal. I don't know if she is under or overwieght, (I after reading this post feel the need to by a scale) however she seems to be at a healthy weight to me. This is just my hypothesis and any replies or suggestions are welcome!

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That is a very good point there seclark.

Putting things into context. Humans have a much higher metabolism than reptiles, in relation we eat small amounts often to maintain energy for day to day activities. Ball pythons are recommended to be fed 10-15% of their body weight, I weigh 85kg, but I don't eat 8.5-13kg at each meal.

After a meal a healthy adult ball python can last a year without food, we'd last a few weeks...

I think we cannot compare our eating needs/habits to those of a reptile.

But your comments about feeding less on a set schedule are interesting. I have been mulling this over in my mind. I think that 10-15% of body weight one a week is too much, I feel that 5% would be more suitable each week. This would allow less fat to be stored on the animal whilst still providing it with all the nourishment it needs to grow.

These are my thoughts, I've not seen hard facts that feeding smaller meals is detrimental, but I've found plenty saying that feeding every 7-14 days is too much...

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Originally Posted by Haydenphoto

Ive been reading all the post everybody have made but do we really know how they eat in the wild ? Has any research been done ? I would think they eat more then every 7 days in the wild ?

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Pythons are generally opportunist feeders who ambush their prey. In the wild food does not arrive on their doorstep once a week, every week.

Sure there may be times of feasting, say during warmer months where the animal may feed a few times a week, but they do this under their instinct that they will be times of famine, when a meal may only come along every month or so.

I cannot say if studies have been done to prove if they eat more or less than every seven days, but it is a known fact that in the wild there are seasons when food is plentiful and when it is scarce....

My view is that in the wild feeding is erratic, you may eat like a king for a few weeks but then no food may be around for a few months...