Question

Last week I purchased a baby normal ball python from a local breeder. After taking the snake home and putting him in his 10 gallon glass tank I noticed that his head would bob slightly as if he was trying to maintain his balance when he was on the glass sides.

I tried to feed him a fuzzy mouse on Tuesday and he refused to eat it. I waited until today and fed him a hopper mouse which he readily accepted. After eating the mouse I noticed that he began to twitch his head and body. He would stop and then twitch again. He even turned his head over upside down and quickly turned it over again to a normal position. I called the breeder and he inquired as to what the mice were kept on at the store. I did not know at the time I talked to the breeder but I have since learned that the mice were kept on pine.

The breeder stated that it souds like a neurological disorder caused from the mouse being kept on cedar. I have tried to reach him via telephone and cannot get an answer. I will keep trying. If the snake has a neurological disorder how much time do they have left before they die?

Also, would a good breeder replace the snake? I do know that my baby ball pythons mom is a bumble bee......not sure who the dad is.

Advice please!

I'm not too sure on how long your BP will live, and I am sorry this happened to you.

When reading before you stated about the mice being on an oily bedding, the symptoms seemed somewhat similar to IBD in a way. But I know for sure it is not IBD because that can only be passed from one another or from having mites that carry a retro virus. It's most likely your snake was poisoned from the oily toxins left on the mice from being on those beddings. I think a good breeder would definitely give you another, but would you really want another snake from this breeder if the same problem will most likely happen again?

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

I'm not too sure on how long your BP will live, and I am sorry this happened to you.

When reading before you stated about the mice being on an oily bedding, the symptoms seemed somewhat similar to IBD in a way. But I know for sure it is not IBD because that can only be passed from one another or from having mites that carry a retro virus. It's most likely your snake was poisoned from the oily toxins left on the mice from being on those beddings. I think a good breeder would definitely give you another, but would you really want another snake from this breeder if the same problem will most likely happen again?

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Point taken! Is it bad to feed mice that have been kept on pine?

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Originally Posted by Reptile King

Point taken! Is it bad to feed mice that have been kept on pine?

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Well, if you plan on feeding the mice to the snake then that would be bad because the mice would have the toxins from the oil on their body and that could be easily passed in the snake once the snake has eaten it which would be even worse since the snake swallowed the oil from the pine that was once on the rodent. I'm not so sure if it's bad for the mice, but I'm guessing it would be since the mice would have the oil from the pine on it's body.

i kept pine base rodents aal lthe tiem with no problem. You said the mother was a bumble bee , that meand the genes for a spider is cared over post a pic of he snake you make have a low end spider and if that the case the wobble is part of the spider morph toss back. I picture of the snake will tell us if it a spider or a norma l that having issues. it also possible that the snake can surive the toxic effect of the cedar oils..

I also suggest possible check yout setup as it possible the uth over heating and cause the possible neor issues.. ( there can be other cause Than the rodent being kept on cedar). I hear story of people were they treated their cats/ home and almost kill their snakes due to the chemcials used..

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Originally Posted by mechnut450

i kept pine base rodents aal lthe tiem with no problem. You said the mother was a bumble bee , that meand the genes for a spider is cared over post a pic of he snake you make have a low end spider and if that the case the wobble is part of the spider morph toss back. I picture of the snake will tell us if it a spider or a norma l that having issues. it also possible that the snake can surive the toxic effect of the cedar oils..

I also suggest possible check yout setup as it possible the uth over heating and cause the possible neor issues.. ( there can be other cause Than the rodent being kept on cedar). I hear story of people were they treated their cats/ home and almost kill their snakes due to the chemcials used..

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You took the words right out of my mouth. Spiders are known for having a head wobble.

Hi,

There are normals with the same wobble as spiders - Lilyorchid on here has one called loopy.

Once he has had time to digest his meal it might be worth trying to get a video if him doing it.

In the meantime also double check the thermostats and thermometers as exposure to extreme temps can also cause neurological damage.


dr del

Okay I spoke with the breeder who stated that all his clutches were healthy and did not have any sick animals. He also stated that the momma is a bumble bee and the daddy is a spider. With all of that being said he said it is a possibility that it could be IBD? but he seriously doubts it. Everyone, including me, that handled his animals were required to use his hand sanitizer before doing so.

If it is a neurological disorder will the snake die soon from it or will he just twitch his head and body until he dies an old man? Regardless he said that he would refund my money or exchange him with another baby male normal.......whatever I wanted to do. That made me feel better as I would rather have a healthy ball python than my $20. Also, can IBD be spread though the air or is it just passed around by handling the critters? I ask because I kept both ball pythons in the same room and not the same tank. My female is thriving right now and I would kick myself if she caught this IBD crap via the air. All you experts please chime in on this stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if i was you i would take him up on the offer to trade it out.

I would switch with him if your bp having head wobble concerns you a lot, as it may just be the genes like others stated. It's not IBD.

^I second this!

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

Well, if you plan on feeding the mice to the snake then that would be bad because the mice would have the toxins from the oil on their body and that could be easily passed in the snake once the snake has eaten it which would be even worse since the snake swallowed the oil from the pine that was once on the rodent. I'm not so sure if it's bad for the mice, but I'm guessing it would be since the mice would have the oil from the pine on it's body.

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The "guesses" aren't helping the OP - the info on IBD is incorrect (IBD has been transmitted in collections that are mite free) as is the assumption about the snake ingesting "oils" from the pine on the rodents.

The toxicity caused by phenols is not that acute and the amount given off or ingested from a even a year's worth of feeders kept on them would be minute. Much of the data about phenols is extrapolated from its effect on small mammals that have been housed directly on highly aromatic shavings.

Before the negative effects of phenols became well known, not only did many reptiles live right on cedar and pine substrates but regularly ingested mice housed on the same substrates for years.

The effect on their health was chronic in nature even with this high level of long term exposure. In other words - your python's risk from this one exposure is negligible.

There are several things that can cause neurological symptoms in snakes:

(1) Excessive high or low temperatures
(2) Viral infections
(3) Genetic neurological defects
(4) Bacterial infections
(5) Parasites
(6) Exposure to toxins

I will keep the snake for 30 days and keep an eye on him. I just hope that it was a freak deal instead of being a disease or neurological disorder. However, I highly doubt that when the snake's head literally flipped upside down and his body began shaking. I will continue to monitor and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by Reptile King

Point taken! Is it bad to feed mice that have been kept on pine?

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We've kept rodents on pine for over 10 years I think... that was NOT the reason for the neurological disorder.

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Originally Posted by Hulihzack

We've kept rodents on pine for over 10 years I think... that was NOT the reason for the neurological disorder.

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I didn't think that a mouse could cause a brain disorder but was wondering if the oils from the pine could cause him damage?

Thus far today I have not seen any unusual behavior although I have not been watching him constantly. I'm hoping for the best!

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Originally Posted by demjor19

You took the words right out of my mouth. Spiders are known for having a head wobble.

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This is a good news/bad news issue. The wobble is not right, but it can occur in morphs with the Spider gene.

The snake may be other-wise healthy & may even outgrow the defect. I saw a vid of a male that was truly severe, but what you describe sounds like it's not effecting the ability of your snake to function or feed.

Not all Spiders wobble, I've a perfectly healthy gal who's dad doesn't wobble either- but this is a common defect to the morph. And even my gal may produce a wobbler down the road... it's not as bad as kinks in T+ Albinos but it is a defect to be aware of. One of the reasons I will be doing more with Pins than Spiders, but back to your snake.

Yes, keep it away from pine/cedar products. Yes, it likely has a genetic defect. But by no means does that mean your animal is at death's door. If you have already become attached to this animal and are concerned if it can have a quality life, yes there is every chance that it can.

All the Best.

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Originally Posted by NorthernRegius.com

This is a good news/bad news issue. The wobble is not right, but it can occur in morphs with the Spider gene.

The snake may be other-wise healthy & may even outgrow the defect. I saw a vid of a male that was truly severe, but what you describe sounds like it's not effecting the ability of your snake to function or feed.

Not all Spiders wobble, I've a perfectly healthy gal who's dad doesn't wobble either- but this is a common defect to the morph. And even my gal may produce a wobbler down the road... it's not as bad as kinks in T+ Albinos but it is a defect to be aware of. One of the reasons I will be doing more with Pins than Spiders, but back to your snake.

Yes, keep it away from pine/cedar products. Yes, it likely has a genetic defect. But by no means does that mean your animal is at death's door. If you have already become attached to this animal and are concerned if it can have a quality life, yes there is every chance that it can.

All the Best.

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I was attached the second I held him! :)

Update on Boomer:

I have been monitoring Boomer the last week and did not observe any twitching or him turning his head upside down. That being said I did not monitor him 24/7 either. Today, five days after I observed the odd behavior, I purchased a hopper mouse from a different store. I fed the hopper mouse to Boomer and closely watched while he ate the mouse. I did not see anything unusual at all!!!!! He acted completely normal..........no pun intended for my normal baby ball python.

Is it possible that if the previous store kept the mouse on cedar that he just had a bad taste from the cedar or pine if in fact he was kept on pine????? Thus far I have seen nothing unusual with the exception that he keeps moving his hides all over the place.......the hot side is 88-90 degrees. I just let him be and put his hides back.

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Originally Posted by Reptile King

Is it possible that if the previous store kept the mouse on cedar that he just had a bad taste from the cedar or pine if in fact he was kept on pine?????

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If that's the case then you have the rarest of snakes - one with a palate.

I don't know who your breeder is (and don't name him because it doesn't matter) but blaming that petit mal seizure on the bedding that the feeder was kept on is pure bunk.

After I re-read your posts I noticed that the breeder also threw IBD out there as a possible culprit. So now he's thrown two BS solutions out there - my advice to you is to stop asking him for advice - he's 0 for 2, with two wild whiffs.

Dump the idea that the rodent you fed it was the problem - it wasn't. There are several potential reasons your snake is exhibiting neurological symptoms - the type of bedding his food was kept on is NOT one of them.

There is a good chance that your animal has a genetic neurological disorder. In fact, search "wobble" on this forum and read away. You're going to come away with a lot more relevant information than any further calls to that breeder will net you.

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Originally Posted by Hulihzack

We've kept rodents on pine for over 10 years I think... that was NOT the reason for the neurological disorder.

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All of my rodents are also kept on pine pellets and finely milled pine shavings for nursing moms. No issues from feeding rodents kept on pine.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

There is a good chance that your animal has a genetic neurological disorder. In fact, search "wobble" on this forum and read away. You're going to come away with a lot more relevant information than any further calls to that breeder will net you.

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It is also possible that at some point he was overheated, either from a temp spike in the OP's enclosure, or at the breeders. This also can cause neurological damage.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

The "guesses" aren't helping the OP - the info on IBD is incorrect (IBD has been transmitted in collections that are mite free) as is the assumption about the snake ingesting "oils" from the pine on the rodents.

The toxicity caused by phenols is not that acute and the amount given off or ingested from a even a year's worth of feeders kept on them would be minute. Much of the data about phenols is extrapolated from its effect on small mammals that have been housed directly on highly aromatic shavings.

Before the negative effects of phenols became well known, not only did many reptiles live right on cedar and pine substrates but regularly ingested mice housed on the same substrates for years.

The effect on their health was chronic in nature even with this high level of long term exposure. In other words - your python's risk from this one exposure is negligible.

There are several things that can cause neurological symptoms in snakes:

(1) Excessive high or low temperatures
(2) Viral infections
(3) Genetic neurological defects
(4) Bacterial infections
(5) Parasites
(6) Exposure to toxins

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Thank you for bringing some knowledge to this thread. People, if you don't have the experience to answer the questions correctly, DON'T ANSWER THEM. I don't join accounting message boards and attempt to answer questions on tax law. Sit back and learn. You don't need to jump in on every thread. :rage:

OK, Let me first say that I am no expert! But I do have a male spider that has a pretty severe wobble. when I first got him he had some of the same symptoms you are describing. His first feed was just crazy looking I have a video attached. I believe this extreme wobble came from stress of the move,traveling etc. Since this vid, he hasn't done this ever again he feeds normally now as any other snake I have, well besides right before striking he has a head tilt and his head shakes a bit. So with that said, when you mention this is norma,l is from both parents that have the spider gene to me it sounds like he got the genetic wobble from the spider gene. I too keep my rodents on pine shaving that have been kiln dried and have had no ill affects. So maybe the stress of the move, new enclosure etc. brought it out in your snake. Mine has settled down alot since I have had him though he is a corkscrewer when held and has the crooked strikes and the head movement right before striking he is as healthy as any other snake in my collection! Here is that Vid.
http://s711.photobucket.com/albums/w...rent=006-2.flv

WOW

So this head wobble thing, only in the spider morph? Phenomenal. I never would have guessed there would be a trait like this in simply a color morph of an animal, how strange. I wish there would be some formal research on the subject. Interesting.

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Originally Posted by omnibus2

WOW

So this head wobble thing, only in the spider morph? Phenomenal. I never would have guessed there would be a trait like this in simply a color morph of an animal, how strange. I wish there would be some formal research on the subject. Interesting.

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Well as I understand it. It is in any snake that has a spider gene involved. IE Bumblebees, Spinners and as this guy has, maybe even a normal looking offspring from some sort of spider gene from the parents.

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Originally Posted by omnibus2

WOW

So this head wobble thing, only in the spider morph? Phenomenal. I never would have guessed there would be a trait like this in simply a color morph of an animal, how strange. I wish there would be some formal research on the subject. Interesting.

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Look again at the Spider- it's a colour & pattern mutation. There are defect-free animals but it's a very real risk working with this morph.