Does tough love really work?

I'm currently trying to switch my 08 pinstripe from f/t mice to f/t rats. Everytime I offer, he seems really interested in it but never strikes. I always cave in and give him a mouse after an hour or so of leaving the rat in his enclosure. Yesterday I tried again, but this time i rubbed the rat with a mouse hoping this would work but nothing happened. I didn't end up caving in this time and now I'm hoping that if I wait a week or two, he'll cave in and take a rat. Does anybody know if this method works? What were your experiences with this situation? Can anybody else recommend a different method to try to convert this guy into rats?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thefnshow66

I'm currently trying to switch my 08 pinstripe from f/t mice to f/t rats. Everytime I offer, he seems really interested in it but never strikes. I always cave in and give him a mouse after an hour or so of leaving the rat in his enclosure. Yesterday I tried again, but this time i rubbed the rat with a mouse hoping this would work but nothing happened. I didn't end up caving in this time and now I'm hoping that if I wait a week or two, he'll cave in and take a rat. Does anybody know if this method works? What were your experiences with this situation? Can anybody else recommend a different method to try to convert this guy into rats?

---

ive heard and seen the method of "tough love" when feeding frozen thawed rodents to work well about 80% of the timel. thats what i plan on doing with my girl, keep offering f/t until she takes it. it should work if you stick your mind do it ;).MAKE SURE YOUR KEEPING TRACK OF HER WEIGHT THOUGH.

Good lucK!

Try a bait and switch. Show him the food item he loves. Put it close enough to get his interest but not close enough for him to strike. Make him cross the cage for it. Then when he is good and hungry switch it out for the other item.
I just did this one one of my balls that would not take a F/t and its working.

try makin a small incision on the nose just enough for a little bit of blood to show. it works on live prey, try it to see if it works on f/t

The tough love method definitely works. I have a 07 male that would only eat live mice and now he is a f/t monster. Its strange because his feeding response is alot better now that hes on f/t rats. The key is to not give up, atleast not so soon. If hes an 08 then he should be able to go a couple weeks without food. Also something you may try is a scenting. Prescent with the f/t mouse and then offer the rat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tank4102

try makin a small incision on the nose just enough for a little bit of blood to show. it works on live prey, try it to see if it works on f/t

---

I sincerely hope that someone isn't making an incision on a live prey item.. :(

I can only speak on converting from live mice to live rats. Tough love worked for me every time. It might take 4 to 5 weeks, but all of my former mousers are on rats. No braining, no incisions, no stunning of live prey. Just live prey offered as live prey, once a week until they were finally hungry enough to take it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

I sincerely hope that someone isn't making an incision on a live prey item.. :(

I can only speak on converting from live mice to live rats. Tough love worked for me every time. It might take 4 to 5 weeks, but all of my former mousers are on rats. No braining, no incisions, no stunning of live prey. Just live prey offered as live prey, once a week until they were finally hungry enough to take it.

---

hello rabernet, i am going to start to try and convert my 09 female on to f/t. she ate last on friday so i suppose i will try tomorow.
any tips for my first try?

and i will weigh her every week to make sure she isnt loosing weight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeartAche

The tough love method definitely works. I have a 07 male that would only eat live mice and now he is a f/t monster. Its strange because his feeding response is alot better now that hes on f/t rats. The key is to not give up, atleast not so soon. If hes an 08 then he should be able to go a couple weeks without food. Also something you may try is a scenting. Prescent with the f/t mouse and then offer the rat.

---

How long did it take for your 07 male to finally take a f/t rat? I'm trying to be realistic about this situation. I'm giving myself a good solid month to see if he'll take a f/t rat. He has some weight, he's almost 700 grams so I know i can wait that long. I'm trying a f/t rat pup because even though he can take a f/t small rat, I hear feeding smaller when it's time to convert from mice to rat works. I just find it amazing that out of all the balls i've tried to convert, he's the only one giving me trouble. All the other balls I've switched gave me no issue. :confused:

Well he was about 700 grams or a little less when I started the conversion. It took about a month and a half. I hear they can go a few months without food but im sure that after a month or 2 your boy will be hungry enough to take the rat. I cant give a definite answer on my methods because I went from live mice straight to f/t rats so I had him in a scented enclosure for the first 3 feedings. Although, I have a feeling that if I didnt use the scenting enclosure he would have taken the rats either way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bamf64

hello rabernet, i am going to start to try and convert my 09 female on to f/t. she ate last on friday so i suppose i will try tomorow.
any tips for my first try?

and i will weigh her every week to make sure she isnt loosing weight.

---

I wouldn't use the "tough love" approach on a f/t conversion on an '09.

At that age, if your husbandry is spot on and she's been eating consistently, it shouldn't be a hard conversion to do.

Make sure that you are using tongs to hold the prey, and make sure that it's warmed up properly, with no frozen middle. Hold the nose of the prey onto a heat lamp for about 10 seconds, or heat it up with a blow dryer to give your snake a heat signature to target.

Try to move the mouse as a live one would, without being too "in your face" with the snake.

Good luck!

Tough love has worked for the majority of my animals so far only 3 of them will not touch a rat, 2 will only eat mice and one will only eat ASF but beside that it has worked for everybody else.

I'm glad to see that tough love can work most of the time so the odds are in my favor. But do you think if my 08 pinstripe takes a rat out of hunger, he'll refuse again the feeding after until he's hungry again or is it where, once the snakes taste the rat and knows it's food, he'll always take it???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thefnshow66

I'm glad to see that tough love can work most of the time so the odds are in my favor. But do you think if my 08 pinstripe takes a rat out of hunger, he'll refuse again the feeding after until he's hungry again or is it where, once the snakes taste the rat and knows it's food, he'll always take it???

---

thats a good question. id say just keep offering rats until he takes them. hell learn sooner or later.:)

Do you think if my 08 pinstripe takes a rat out of hunger, he'll refuse again the feeding after until he's hungry again or is it where, once the snakes taste the rat and knows it's food, he'll always take it???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thefnshow66

Do you think if my 08 pinstripe takes a rat out of hunger, he'll refuse again the feeding after until he's hungry again or is it where, once the snakes taste the rat and knows it's food, he'll always take it???

---

I had some that would take a rat, then want mice again - once they had a rat, a mouse was never offered again. They all came around.

Now - keep in mind, these were juveniles or adults that had good weight and muscle tone on them and were not in any danger from a few missed meal cramps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

I wouldn't use the "tough love" approach on a f/t conversion on an '09.

At that age, if your husbandry is spot on and she's been eating consistently, it shouldn't be a hard conversion to do.

Make sure that you are using tongs to hold the prey, and make sure that it's warmed up properly, with no frozen middle. Hold the nose of the prey onto a heat lamp for about 10 seconds, or heat it up with a blow dryer to give your snake a heat signature to target.

Try to move the mouse as a live one would, without being too "in your face" with the snake.

Good luck!

---

gotcha! thanks for the advice! ill let u know how it goes!

I've had better luck giving the snake food on schedule every week. A large part of the time, if it's not going to be insanely stubborn, it will take the new food item in a few weeks. I offer the new item first. If it's not accepted, then I offer the snake what it's used to.
I have had huge success with waiting just one day after the usual feeding day, and scenting the rat with mouse urine. I personally don't think letting them fast helps much--they are creatures of habit, and they're used to going very long stretches without food. If they go into fasting mode, they can outwait you, and they will starve themselves to death if they aren't inclined to accept the prey you provide. This has happened many times with imported ball pythons.

I have some frustrating ball pythons who will refuse rats 80% of the time. They turn up their nose completely. When offered mice, they take them right down. I keep offering rats, as every once in a while they eat them. :P Since the goal is to get them to eat and keep putting on weight, there's no sense in insisting they take rats if they'll only take them once every 3 weeks.

well thanks for all the replies. I'll keep everybody posted on my results on this snake. I checked up on him this morning and his head was resting on top of his hide looking out. I know he's hungry but he wasn't hungry enough to eat the rat I offered so hopefully next monday will be the day.

Take a look at this :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cinderbird

PRE SCENT PRE SCENT PRE SCENT. :)
Pre scenting, i have noticed, will trigger most snakes to go into feeding mode. What I do personally, is stick the mice and rats im going to feed my snakes into an empty tub in their rack (i feed frozen thawed and happen to have empty rack space in my rack). I let the rodents defrost for about 5 hours or more. The larger items go over the heat tape, the smaller ones don't have to. I then take out a hair dryer and give all the rodents a quick blast with it on low. I usually have the hair dryer on, but not directly on the rodents because you dont want to cook them. Within 30 seconds all my snakes are out cursing their enclosures looking for food.

Other methods of presenting are leaving the rodents to thaw near the enclosure of the snake. Weather it be a live rodent or defrosting in a baggie with warm water and leaving the corner of the baggie open.

Always make sure your rodents are warm enough. They should feel warm to the touch (not hot, not cold). And make sure they are thoroughly defrosted. You can check this by squeezing the ribs and stomach of the rodent lightly. If you get give the rodent is defrosted. If you squeeze and you dont feel any movement of the ribs, then the rodent is not yet defrosted :).

SWITCHING PREY TYPES and SCENTING:
Ball pythons can be pretty picky when it comes to their food. If they like mice, sometimes they want to stay on mice, but you want to move them to rats (for whatever reason you choose).

Always try just feeding the wanted prey type first, you'd be surprised how many snakes just don't care and smell "rodent" instead of individualizing, and end up eating.

If you feed F/T, defrost 2 prey items that together reach the size of the prey item you want to feed your snake. Have one of them be the first prey type, and the other be the second prey type. Take the first prey item (hereby called mouse) and rub it all over the second prey item (we'll call that one rat). I usually try to rub the head, belly and genital area of the mouse on the rat. I don't really know rodent anatomy other than the gross anatomy stuff but i assume rodents have scent glands in their faces and genital areas. Do this pretty liberally. You might not be able to discern a difference between the two, but your snake may. Try to offer the rat (second item) once you've done this. If the snake doesn't take it, try rubbing the mouse on the rat some more (this is called scenting). Try offering it again (make sure it is warm, the item may have cooled off by now).

Hopefully the snake will take it, if not, offer the first prey item first (mouse). Let the snake eat that item. Once it has finished and realigned its jaws offer the second item. Since the snake is in feeding mode, it may take the rodent since it already smells vaguely of its preferred type.

If this doesn't work, try it again at the next feeding. If you have to skip a feeding session to try to switch your snake it is ok. These snakes eat much more often in captivity than they do in the wild. Baby snakes can go with skipping a meal every once in a while. Until your snake switches, keep scenting the rodent by rubbing it with the other prey type.

With older, more established animals, skipping a few feeding sessions may be in order. Be aware that there are some snakes that will never switch. They would rather starve than eat prey type two.


Pre scent (! :) ) youre prey item, make sure it is dry and offer it to your snake off of hemostats. Hold the prey item with the hemostats near the scruff or the shoulder blades. If your snake takes it off the hemostats, congrats! If not, try doing the zombie dance. The zombie dance is moving the rodent in natural ways simulating life so that your snake thinks the prey is alive. Move the rodent slowly, and dont harass the snake with it (ie, don't bump your snake in the nose or body with the rodent). If your snake is in feeding mode you'll be able to tell. (Intent stare, flickering tongue, "s" curve in the neck). If they are in feeding mode, you will probably elicit a feeding strike. If your snake strikes and constricts, give the tail of the rodent a few tugs to simulate struggling. This will further ingrain the feeding response and help to curb any spitting out of the rodent.
.

---

I just wanted to update everybody on my picky pinstripe ball python. It seems like tough love did work and it only took a week. I offered a F/T Rat pup earlier and he didn't strike right away but he finally went for it!! Hopefully this isn't a one time deal and he'll continue to eat rats for the rest of his life. Two more balls to go to convert, wish me luck. Thanks again!!!