inbred

i asked this in another thread but i lost track of it..
it seems weird to me to pair a son/daughter back to his/her mom/dad.
not because i think its disgusting or whatever but because in humans it causes birth defects and mutations. has any research been done on inbreeding with snakes? after all,just because the snake looks good doesnt mean they're all there mentally and since they cant talk to us (oh how i wish they could;)) it would be hard to know unless your a dna analyzer or something.



im not hating on anyone who does it, to each his own, they wouldnt be alive anyway if you werent breeding them, etc so nobody get offended please i see alot of smarta%$ remarks here daily and im not looking to bring up any of those feelings, thanks (:

Inbreeding MOST usually does not affect the offspring but in some cases it does. Like in caramel albinos have alot of kinking because they have been inbred so much. I think if you keep the inbreeding to 3 generations and under then you should be safe.

The only time i've seen bad birth defects (no eyes, deformed head, etc..) is from brother to sister.. Sib to sib.. This is because the chromosomes are EXACTLY the same, so when bred together they sometimes lose a chromosome... But when its offspring back to parent the chromosomes AREN'T EXACTLY the same... Look at it like this... Dad (AAAA), Mom (BBBB) = Baby (AABB)... So When (AABB)x(AABB)= Deformities, The Chromosomes are exactly the same... But say offspring is bred back to the dad... (AABB)x(AAAA), as you can see the chromosomes aren't the same... Im pretty sure im right... If not, blame my science teacher...

The chromosomes aren't exactly the same in sibs. Crossing over, random assortment, etc assure this. The sibs might share the same visible color traits, but they aren't genetically identical. Now they DO share more more genes than an unrelated individual because they are mixes of the same parent genes.

Over time I think we're going to see many more problems concerning inbreeding. I see ads in the classifieds selling 1.1 pairs of snakes that have been inbred continuously for 2-3 generations to get the right genes in them. Over time we're going to break down the integrity of the genes if this continues. It's happened in corns, bearded dragons, etc. US dragons are smaller than the less inbred dragons in Europe, they live shorter lives, etc. A corn isn't silly or cute because it doesn't kill its prey and proceeds to eat it live butt first.

Every time you inbreed an animal you increase the frequency of ALL genes in the line- not just the ones you're breeding for, and when bred to a related individual the chances of harmful conditions surfacing increases. You may be breeding an albino that has a very rare recessive harmful gene. If you breed its offspring back to it there is a far greater chance of this very rare harmful gene showing up in its homozygous form in the offspring. Out crossing is very important to keep the snakes healthy in the long term.

Edit: Also keep in mind that when buying 66% hets, they're likely sibs from 100% het parents, and you need to remember that it is very likely these are already at LEAST one generation inbred (unless the breeder was smart enough to get unrelated hets as you should be doing), and now you're going to inbreed the 66% het sibs? Always ask about the parents.

Im not sure if the same rule applies for snakes, but i know that cheetahs are extremely inbred and most of them die off because they're more prone to disease.

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Originally Posted by Tikall

The chromosomes aren't exactly the same in sibs. Crossing over, random assortment, etc assure this. The sibs might share the same visible color traits, but they aren't genetically identical. Now they DO share more more genes than an unrelated individual because they are mixes of the same parent genes.

Over time I think we're going to see many more problems concerning inbreeding. I see ads in the classifieds selling 1.1 pairs of snakes that have been inbred continuously for 2-3 generations to get the right genes in them. Over time we're going to break down the integrity of the genes if this continues. It's happened in corns, bearded dragons, etc. US dragons are smaller than the less inbred dragons in Europe, they live shorter lives, etc. A corn isn't silly or cute because it doesn't kill its prey and proceeds to eat it live butt first.

Every time you inbreed an animal you increase the frequency of ALL genes in the line- not just the ones you're breeding for, and when bred to a related individual the chances of harmful conditions surfacing increases. You may be breeding an albino that has a very rare recessive harmful gene. If you breed its offspring back to it there is a far greater chance of this very rare harmful gene showing up in its homozygous form in the offspring. Out crossing is very important to keep the snakes healthy in the long term.

Edit: Also keep in mind that when buying 66% hets, they're likely sibs from 100% het parents, and you need to remember that it is very likely these are already at LEAST one generation inbred (unless the breeder was smart enough to get unrelated hets as you should be doing), and now you're going to inbreed the 66% het sibs? Always ask about the parents.

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I think this is something responsible breeders should always consider after all these are living creatures not just decorations.:gj: It appears to me that the most expensive snakes tend to have less pigment /melanin "Melanin's have very diverse roles and functions in various organisms." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin I often wonder how this effect the senses as well as the organic structure of these animals.Not to mention lifespan as well as quality of life . Remember the number one rule of breeding is to perfect and protect a species not just make it beautiful. That being said one of my favorite B.P. is a albino pied so I understand why we walk the tight rope .;)

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Originally Posted by americangypsy

I think this is something responsible breeders should always consider after all these are living creatures not just decorations.:gj: It appears to me that the most expensive snakes tend to have less pigment /melanin "Melanin's have very diverse roles and functions in various organisms." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin I often wonder how this effect the senses as well as the organic structure of these animals.Not to mention lifespan as well as quality of life . Remember the number one rule of breeding is to perfect and protect a species not just make it beautiful. That being said one of my favorite B.P. is a albino pied so I understand why we walk the tight rope .;)

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While melanin is important in many creatures, I haven't seen evidence yet that it is necessary in captive pythons. Albino balls were first around in the early 1990s, so it is my opinion that this is a reasonable enough amount of time to tell if there are problems with the mutation. Albino burms have also been around since the mid 1980s. I think it's pretty safe to consider the mutation safe enough in captive pythons unless there is some terrible hidden secret. Of course we can't know exactly without many studies, but there are no outward signs that these snakes have problems.

But I definitely agree that we should not be doing anything to hurt the snakes. I think with enough out crossing (anything would be better than what we are currently doing) we can have healthy snakes and beautiful morphs even in another 20+ years. It will be much more expensive to make double recessives if one breeder is trying to take it on, but it would be worth it in the long run. Say for an albino pied you would need two unrelated pieds and two unrelated albinos, then you could breed the offspring of the different clutches together. You could also buy double hets from different breeders which will cost you an extra $50 for separate shipping than it would be buying related individuals from the same breeder. If you buy from a big enough breeder they might even have unrelated double hets for sale and you can save the $50. This alone would be much, much better than breeding siblings together to get a double recessive.

Line breeding is mother/father x son/daughter and is less likely to cause genetic issues if done responsibly (ie only a few generations before introducing new blood) whereas inbreeding is brother x sister and is more likely to cause issues if done repeatedly without introducing new genes.

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

Line breeding is mother/father x son/daughter and is less likely to cause genetic issues if done responsibly (ie only a few generations before introducing new blood) whereas inbreeding is brother x sister and is more likely to cause issues if done repeatedly without introducing new genes.

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What exactly do you mean? You said the same thing for both- that they are harmful after a few generations without new blood, and that is impossible to tell. You are waiting for deformities on the outside to become apparent, and that just isn't going to happen all of the time. Close inbreeding has shown to have harmful side effects time and time again, so why do it to balls too?

Also those are both examples of inbreeding. Line breeding is just a nicer word for a moderate form of inbreeding. Line breeding refers to crossing distantly related animals, and inbreeding in breeder terms is crossing sib x sib, offspring x parent, and other closely related animals. You are still increasing the frequency of the genes in a particular line which is still potentially very harmful. Why would you risk the long term genetic diversity and health of the animal to save your wallet a little bit when you're already spending so much on them? Technically with some morphs that only have one founder, or the lines are incompatible, inbreeding is unavoidable, but it's better to cross distantly related animals than closely related ones.

Here are a few posts and threads from similar discussions in the past:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...42&postcount=7

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ght=inbreeding

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...66&postcount=4

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...34&postcount=4

It's not a mystery what inbreeding does, and I am rather tired of people on this forum pretending that balls are impervious to it. To assume that there will not be undesired results after a few generations of inbreeding is naive because that would assume your animals are not holding at least one potentially harmful gene. If we are at about generation 5 now, where will we be in a decade or two or three now that we are kicking the combos into gear? Will people not be breeding or keeping balls then? If you think people will be breeding them then, why this attitude of "Why do today what we could put off till tomorrow?" If we want to wait till we see visible debilitating (since harmless deformities like 6 supralabial pits on each side has been deemed okay with everyone) deformities that can ruin an entire line then I guess that's okay? Or is it taking advantage of the animals?

How do you think most of our dog breeds came to be?

They were line bred for certain traits... coat thickness, temperament, size, color, tracking skills, etc

People have been breeding dogs for traits for well over 100 years and I KNOW that line breeding and in breeding does occur. I don't see many if any deformities in dogs. Nobody inbreeds or line breeds more than a few generations because of the fact that undesired results (deformities) are possibilities.

Unless a genetic defect is already present line breeding will always be the safer route of "inbreeding" because the genes are only half the same. :gj:

James, are you being serious or trolling? I know dogs have been extensively line and inbred, but to say you don't see deformities is boggling. The guidelines for English bulldogs recently had to be changed from HUGE head to LARGE head because of all the health problems they suffer from (and breeders were enraged for changing the standards to allow for healthier animals, oh no!). They can't even breed naturally and need to be artificially inseminated. Many purebred dogs suffer from a laundry list of health issues, and guess what it's from? The English bulldog is just one breed, but look at dobermans, German shepherds, and many more. Certain breeds are very well known for their own health issues.

With snakes we are not trying to change their shape or anything too drastic, and for most of the genes it is clear how they are inherited and close inbreeding is so easily avoided, yet you don't want to?

I'm not saying anything even close to "we should stop breeding for morphs," but I do think we should start breeding for healthier snakes. By the time a deformity becomes tied to a line and many people already have the snakes, do you think everyone will suddenly drop their projects? I highly doubt it. I realize wobbling is tied to the spider gene and kinking is tied to the caramel gene (and at this point I doubt either are from inbreeding), but what if inbreeding led to no eyes in some hatchlings of a ghost line, and none of the smaller breeders knew until they started hatching out their own eyeless ghosts? Again, would everyone drop all of their projects with this line or would we just have more freezer babies every year? How about we just avoid it with smart breeding plans in the first place?

I'm not saying by any means to hide or continually breed if defects are present. I am merely stating that as for most of the BP community line breeding and inbreeding doesnt go farther than one to two generations, we do it because if we were to breed two visual recessives together in order to get that visual we would then need to breed brother and sister back.

There are not many people out there that will trade animals of like genetics for outcrossing because most are fearful that they will receive unhealthy animals in trade so they use animals they produced and know to be healthy.

I know what you mean about the brachiocephalic dogs and all of their issues, and personally I would never own an animal like that anyway, but more and more of the purebreeds are getting better, because they are being outcrossed. More people are studding out animals to cut down on inbreeding.

I have no animals in my collection that are related in blood, so I am merely playing Devils Advocate here, but I see no issue with "inbreeding" if done responsibly. And by responsibly I mean for the health of the animals, once something is noticed you have already crossed the line.

I agree with a good 2/3 of that. I simply think inbreeding should be made a bigger issue than "Oh it's fine in ball pythons, even though we've seen terrible consequences it in mammals, fish, other reptiles, and more." One or two generations probably won't do anything terrible, but what also needs to be watched for is people selling 1.1 pairs from the same clutch because who knows how far the inbreeding goes back? And what if the next person wants to sell a 1.1 pair of the hatchlings they produced from the inbred 1.1 they originally bought? The snakes change hands and I think few people ask for proof of heritage. I just think it should be a bigger deal, and people should be encouraged to ask these sorts of questions if buying a 1.1 pair from a breeder.

I am not sure what you mean about needing to closely inbreed to get a double recessive, as I stated how you would get around it in the previous page. It's potentially more expensive if you start from scratch, but it's not like you wouldn't make your money back with strong lines and double recessives to sell. You have to keep in mind people might be more willing to pay more for outcrossed snakes if you include it in the advertisement. It makes your snakes stand out from the other ads.

And people buy and sell snakes all the time. If people started paying more attention to the other genes in their snakes I don't see why many would be unwilling to sell some of their hets and buy hets from other reputable breeders to cross with their holdback hets.

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Originally Posted by Tikall

James, are you being serious or trolling? I know dogs have been extensively line and inbred, but to say you don't see deformities is boggling. The guidelines for English bulldogs recently had to be changed from HUGE head to LARGE head because of all the health problems they suffer from (and breeders were enraged for changing the standards to allow for healthier animals, oh no!). They can't even breed naturally and need to be artificially inseminated. Many purebred dogs suffer from a laundry list of health issues, and guess what it's from? The English bulldog is just one breed, but look at dobermans, German shepherds, and many more. Certain breeds are very well known for their own health issues.

With snakes we are not trying to change their shape or anything too drastic, and for most of the genes it is clear how they are inherited and close inbreeding is so easily avoided, yet you don't want to?

I'm not saying anything even close to "we should stop breeding for morphs," but I do think we should start breeding for healthier snakes. By the time a deformity becomes tied to a line and many people already have the snakes, do you think everyone will suddenly drop their projects? I highly doubt it. I realize wobbling is tied to the spider gene and kinking is tied to the caramel gene (and at this point I doubt either are from inbreeding), but what if inbreeding led to no eyes in some hatchlings of a ghost line, and none of the smaller breeders knew until they started hatching out their own eyeless ghosts? Again, would everyone drop all of their projects with this line or would we just have more freezer babies every year? How about we just avoid it with smart breeding plans in the first place?

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:rockon: I totally agree with you .:gj:

thanks everyone for the input (:
personally i dont believe in inbreeding or line breeding in any animal including humans, snakes, dogs. no extensive research has been done for snakes in particular simply because no one cares. but if anybody should care it should be people who have an account on a ball python forum because obviously they care enough to help everyone out and post pics of their snakes that theyre oh so proud of. sure its wonderful to have beautiful ball pythons with rare markings and glorious color but quality of life is key. who knows? line breeding could cause blurry vision, impaired scent, even digestive problems. things that breeders wouldnt really notice because most people SEEM to think that as long as the snake is hiding, eating, and shedding everything is okay but theres much more to a snakes life than that. shoooot i feel terrible everytime my ball jerks his head back in fear and freak out trying to make him comfortable and calm and flinching is common. i couldnt imagine what would happen if he didnt eat or had a bad shed ): i suggest that if anyone is line breeding they switch it up a little bit for the sake of all snakes and your customers. im pretty sure many would be willing to do trades or you could bump up prices a wee bit to cover the cost of a brand new unrelated snake. in the long run, i think it would be beneficial to everyone.